A Very OK Podcast
Episode 7: “A Very OK Podcast + BrainBox LIVE Crossover Event”
September 24, 2021
Episode Transcript
Trait Thompson: Well, hello, and welcome to our live podcast event. This is our joint collaboration between two podcasts that, if you’re not listening to, you should definitely be listening to: the BrainBox podcast put on by the Oklahoma Humanities Council and our podcast for the Oklahoma Historical Society, A Very OK Podcast, which is our clever name that I didn’t come up with, but we’re so glad to have you all here, excited to talk about a topic tonight that I think is going to be really interesting. We have a great lineup of guests to weigh in on the conversation, and October is Arts and Humanities Month in Oklahoma. And so this is why we’re doing this as well. We also want to mention that on October 16, from 9 a.m. in the morning until 2 p.m., here at the Oklahoma History Center, we’re going to be having our Folklife Festival, where we’ll be highlighting many of the cultures we’re talking about here tonight, and many more that we won’t even have a chance to mention. It’s going to be a very, very fun day. So we’ll encourage all of you to come out for that.
And today on the panel with us, we have Dr. Bob Blackburn, who was my predecessor at the Oklahoma Historical Society. We have Brooke Haney. Welcome, Brooke. We have Sunu Kodumthara, and I’ve been working on that one, I promise. And Javier Hernandez. We are ready to have a good conversation about what it is to grow up in Oklahoma. If you weren’t, if you are, was of a different culture, and what it’s like in your particular culture, and we’re going to talk about, in general, just what it’s like, the cultural melting pot that we have here in Oklahoma. So first, I want to turn it over to Dr. Blackburn, and Dr. Blackburn, can you maybe set the stage for us? What are some of the cultures that have impacted our state? How have those cultures, how have those cultures been important into making us who we are?
Dr. Bob Blackburn: All right. Well, you know, over time, Trait, historians have grappled with the question of what binds Oklahoma history together. What is the real theme that permeates everything in Oklahoma history? E. E. Dale, the great historian at OU, said it was a frontier experience; the cowboys, and the people on the frontier, and learning, and the lessons learned from their frontier. Angie Debo thought it was American Indian history that was something that could bind us together. Arrell Gibson, who was a friend of mine, and I published an article by him on this subject. He said it was mobility, the fact that Oklahoma history has been settled with such mobility since its very beginning helps define us. Danney Goble, great historian, said it was the southern roots of Oklahoma.
Well, what I’ve observed, after almost 50 years of studying and writing about Oklahoma history, is that it is the fact that Oklahoma is a land of immigrants. That’s the term I use. I have entire speeches about Oklahoma, the land of immigrants, and it’s about people coming from all across the world coming here, and it’s unique. It’s what separates us from the stories of Texas, and Kansas, and New Mexico, and Arkansas, and much of the rest of the country, We were the melting pot of the melting pot. And people came here for different reasons, at different times from different places, and settled in different places. And then this patchwork quilt of settlement kind of established the character of Oklahoma. For me and you, who worked with the legislative branch of government, it is so unlike working with a representative from the Cherokee Outlet from the old Choctaw Nation. If we are dealing with a community on creating a new partnership to get things done, on collecting, preserving and sharing history, it’s different when you’re working with someone in Miami than someone in Tillman County. It is a patchwork quilt of settlement. You see it in politics. You see it in the lack of an identity. There’s no thread, despite all of the millions that have been spent on branding this state and trying to find a brand. It can’t be done because it’s too diverse.
But on the other side of that is that that is our strength, that diversity, the different cultures that have been brought here, and the cultural baggage of the people. The 39 tribes, all but the Caddoan speakers, really, have come here forced by the federal government to come to Oklahoma, bringing their cultural baggage, whether it is Seminole, or Choctaw, or Cherokee. Each is so different from one of the others, but that created this patchwork quilt in Indian country. Then you start with the different parts of Oklahoma history and people coming here for the cattle frontier, coming here for the oil frontier from the Mid-Atlantic. And then the Lebanese who were fleeing the Ottoman Empire seeing an opportunity because of oil. The Jewish people fleeing Eastern Europe, see an opportunity with the oil industry and coming and settling down, and then the wheat frontier with mechanization and greater production. Here come the Germans from Russia and the Mennonites and those communities. And then you start adding the impact of World War II with people coming here for jobs to work at Tinker Air Force Base, the Douglas bomber plant in Tulsa. Then you throw in war and disruption around the world with the Vietnamese coming here after the Fall of Saigon.
And then, each of these different reasons and different people coming here and becoming part of this mix of Latinos, and African Americans, and Indians, and German ancestry, and Scots-Irish ancestry, and from England, it’s created something that is, to me, very vital. And out of that comes the energy of who we are, and trying to figure out how to get people to work together in our own networks, or to believe in the mission of what we’re really out there working on, creating the music, or teaching history, or working in the business community. We’re all trying to do the same things, get things accomplished, build networks, get investors, find customers. Trying to understand this, I think, forces Oklahomans to be a little more creative, a little more persistent. And times are tough out here on the High Plains, and hanging on. Jerry and I were just talking a little bit ago You know, in the oil patch, you’ve got to believe that tomorrow is better than today. It’s like a wheat farmer. It’s always going to be better tomorrow. You know, we got to hang on today.
Thompson: Just give me one more boom, and I promise not to mess it up. Right?
(laughter)
Blackburn: That’s right. That’s perfect. But this land of immigrants creates this diversity that we should be celebrating. And this is maybe too political; we shouldn’t be building walls. We should be opening our arms and saying, this is a strength of Oklahoma, this diversity coming from around the globe and adding to this mixture that is uniquely Oklahoman. For historians, it’s a great thing to study and try to understand. For people trying to make a living out in the world, it’s great challenge. So anyway, that diversity is represented on this stage today, Trait. Thanks for bringing us all together.
Thompson: Well, I thank everyone for being here. And before we move off this topic a little bit, I wonder, Bob, would you mind talking about the ways that Oklahoma has done cultural integration well, and maybe some ways that we’ve done poorly or fallen short through history before we move on?
Blackburn: Well, of course, you know, the 800-pound gorilla there is the way we treated African Americans in our history. That’s disgraceful, and we’re still paying the price. We are still struggling. Race, racism is still a part of Oklahoma culture. In trying to overcome that, I think is a challenge for a lifetime. And so we’re dealing with decades and more than a century of the impact of racism there. But with American Indians, the exploitation, if you read about what happened to those orphans in the 19-teens and ’20s, I’m just finishing a project on the Cheyenne-Arapaho. Of all the Cheyenne-Arapaho who took allotments in 1892, something like 10% of them still had the land 30 years later. And the exploitation was an industry, as you would exploit a natural resource, whether it was coal or wind or whatever, to those Oklahomans at the time, it was a resource to exploit. And we did not do a very good job.
But I think there have always been people willing to stand up and say, we can do better. In the African American community, one of my heroes, of course, Clara Luper, and people like Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher. You know, these people have stood up and says, we cannot do this any longer. There are people in the Indian community. Kelly Haney, your father, stood up and say, we American Indians have a voice, and we are going to be heard. And he his entire career, whether as a preacher, or an artist, or a politician, or a businessman, he has been heard. And I think we in Oklahoma have seen these examples of people breaking through that resistance and still accomplishing some great things in Oklahoma. And so it’s a project still underway. We all have to be aware that we’ve got to be sympathetic with all people, no matter what the religion, what their belief, the pigment of their skin, the language they were born with, their religious orientation, but there’s still something we all can learn from. And it adds to this mixture that makes Oklahoma a great place to live.
Thompson: Yeah. And some of the latest news happening just as we speak, we’ve got 1,000 Afghan refugees coming to our state. And many people of both political stripes have welcomed and encouraged that, and so that’s encouraging news for us going forward. Sunu, I want to turn the conversation to you. And I wonder, you’re a college professor now, at Southwestern Oklahoma State University, correct? And can you tell us a little bit about your formative years, your growing up experience in Oklahoma?
Dr. Sunu Kodumthara: So, I moved here with my family when I was six years old from Denver. So my sister and I were born in Denver, but my parents are from Kerala, India. My dad came here when he was the ripe old age of 22 and came here on his own, completely by himself. He is the third of seven boys. God bless my grandmother. And then a few years later, my mom came by herself, and the two of them got married without either of their parents, none of their siblings. So the two of them married in Denver and started their family. And, you know, it was there that, for a while, they, you know, did fine. But Oklahoma presented a better economic opportunity for them because my mom’s a nurse. She was a registered nurse, which is how she came to the United States in the first place. For a lot of South Asian women, a lot of South Asian people in general, that’s how they came to the United States, because the United States was looking for nurses. And so, she was a trained nurse, and so that’s how she came here. And Oklahoma had a better way of living economically. And so they decided, okay, let’s move to Oklahoma. And she got a job with the VA hospital and she still works there. So good luck to all of you patients who have ever dealt with Mother Elsie.
(laughter)
Kodumthara: She’s one of those Indian nurses that you do not want to mess with, and I apologize to all of you. I’m so sorry. But I will say she, both, the two of them, one of the things that they were not expecting, and the same for me and my sister, what we weren’t expecting was the Indian community that we found here from Kerala. It was unexpected and welcomed because my sister and I did not know our parents’ native language as we were growing up in Denver because there wasn’t a large Indian community there. And so when we came here, we started to meet more people from Kerala. We started to go to church with them. We started spending our evenings with them.
But what also happened was I started to see two very different worlds. So I would go to school and see only white faces. So all of my teachers were white, and all of my classmates were white. And then I would go home, and in the evenings, we would only be with brown people, and on the weekends it was only brown people. And that was very confusing for me, because in Denver I’ve got brown people everywhere. I’ve got some Black people here, and I’ve got some white people here, and it was a mix. And then on top of that, there were mountains, and there’s greenery, and here the dirt was red. There are no mountains, and my six-year-old self was confused. I’m like, where are the mountains? Why are things red in the ground and everything’s flat? I don’t understand.
So there was a little bit of an identity confusion for me because I didn’t know exactly where I fit in, to be honest. So it was a little bit of a of a culture clash. When I went to school, for example, you know, I’m in the first grade, and I didn’t quite fit in with my classmates, I realized, and I struggled to make friends because they didn’t know what to do with my name. My name was so different from theirs. Sunu Kodumthara doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue. I’m not sure how many of you quickly snap to that, but they were really confused with what, and you know, if everybody six you know it doesn’t, it’s fine. So they were just sort of adjusting to me, and it took a little time. And so I suddenly realized, wow, I’m really different here, and I don’t know what to do with that. And then on top of that, even in the evenings and on the weekends when I’m with other people who look like me, I didn’t quite fit in with them either, because the way I spoke didn’t sound like the way they spoke. They could speak a language that I couldn’t, and they could understand things that I couldn’t. And so I realized I really stood out in a way that didn’t make sense, right? And I started to ask the question, why? Why did we move here? This makes no sense to me. Money makes no sense to me anyway, so economics wasn’t going to explain that to me. And it, I guess the conclusion I came to was, my parents were trying to teach me how to be Indian and that really wasn’t it. But in my mind, that was the answer. That the “why” was I needed to learn how to be an Indian. And for me, that was something that sort of shaped my understanding of who I was supposed to be or how I was supposed to fit in.
And that’s something that I think for a lot of us who are sort of struggling with our cultural identity, try to understand why are we, or how did we end up here, and what do we contribute to this larger narrative? How can we help shape this Oklahoma story and this American identity, right? How can we contribute to it? What can we add to it? And so, you know, in trying to help this conversation forward, you know, I think that’s where I think Javier can really jump in because, Javier, you were born in Mexico City, which is extremely different from Denver and definitely not Kerala, India. But you also, you have to have a “why” for why you ended up here or how you ended up here. What’s your part of the story?
Javier Hernandez: Yeah. Thank you, Sunu. Thank you for sharing that. You know, I think, I learned this from my wife and through reading, obviously she learned the word nepantla, kind of being in the in between, not from here and not from there, right? And so when my mother first arrived here, she was leaving an abusive relationship, and that was one part. The other part, I already had uncles living in Texas, and we arrived in Texas, and soon after arriving in Texas, it was like Oklahoma is where there’s more opportunity. And since I was one-and-a-half-year old, I’ve been living in Oklahoma.
And so when we talk about opportunity in Oklahoma and the opportunities that it presents, it was that for our family, from a very young age for myself, and I like the statement you made, like economics didn’t make sense to us at that time, right? And I go back to thinking, even before pre-K and the things that my parents were doing to keep us afloat, and we were recycling pallets, and that was our evening/weekend job. We would take routes all throughout the city, picking up pallets, recycling pallets, and making sales on the weekends to, you know, to keep food on the table, pay the bills, and all of that good stuff. And it just so happened that I had three uncles who created pallet businesses and were super successful for, you know, over the last 10 or 15 years have continued to be successful in that. And so, you know, coming from being born in Mexico City and being undocumented in Oklahoma, I never had the opportunity to return to Mexico. And so for the first time, in December of last year, I was able to travel to Mexico after receiving my Green Card. And, I mean, that was all of just opportunity that opened up and, you know, always kind of being ready for that opportunity. But I went to a grade school here in Oklahoma City, you know, everything, everything Oklahoma City is home. It’s where I’ve been raised. And I kind of want to go back to that idea of not from here and not from there, but graduating, or graduating elementary school, going from elementary school into middle school. I went from Rockwood Elementary, where, yeah, I think we were, if you want to say, a melting pot where we had students from all over.
But then I went to Dove Science Academy for sixth grade, and that was a culture shock in itself, located on Northwest 23rd and Classen. And I went into a school with, I want to say, 80-90% Turkish teachers. And so I went from, you know, just English and Spanish home and school to then being offered a Turkish class, being invited into a Turkish household, eating their food. And not only that, but the Asian community, also, at Dove Science Academy was huge. And so I went from Rockwood Elementary, where I knew everyone, to Dove Science Academy, where I knew no one. But I’m grateful, right? Because I think everyone knows Oklahomans are friendly, right? Everyone knows Oklahomans are friendly. And so going into a school like that, it forced me to build new community. And I think that’s something that my family followed here, obviously, right? Following their family, but following community that was built within our family because the pallet business, you meet so many people and recycling and you don’t just recycle pallets, you know, everyone recycles aluminum cans, and copper, and things like that. But pallets was our go-to, and so, you know, getting in, getting into Dove Science Academy, going through that program, being in a charter school, having the opportunity to say get college-ready was something that I know my parents obviously wanted me to focus on, and it was always education first. Everything else will take care of itself.
But then, when I found out I was undocumented at the age of 14, I started thinking to myself, well, where am I from? What do I do? Where do I belong? Am I going to get a driver’s license? Will I be able to work? And at 14, you don’t know what undocumented means. And so it took me a really long time to really, you know, understand that. And then you start talking about applying for OLAP, and then the question comes up, are you a US citizen? No. Are you a resident? I don’t know, you know, at that age. But then also having that conversation with my parents and saying, hey, what’s going on here? Why don’t I have a driver’s license? What can I do? And like them and myself, we just didn’t know where to go, what to do. And we talked about this a bit in our preparation for this event, but applying for colleges was a big deal for me. Obviously, you know, always putting an education first. And I was a huge soccer player, and part of that was my mom always stop playing soccer, you know? But that was a community for myself and for my family as well. But she said stop playing soccer. Take care of your body. And I never stopped playing soccer. And well then, my thought was to be an architectural engineer. And I said, well, OSU, OSU Stillwater is the best place to do that. I applied for OLAP, got OLAP, Oklahoma’s Promise, had a full-ride scholarship to Oklahoma State University, and just before, like a couple, a month before school started, I received a call from their advisor after I explained everything and she said, you know, all these scholarships that we have granted you, you can’t accept because of my undocumented status. And so that was a, that was, I think, something that Oklahoma didn’t know how to handle at that moment, right? And I think now higher education facilities are doing a lot better in helping the undocumented folks living in Oklahoma. But at that time, it was so brand new that we were still trying to figure out what to do.
I kind of went into a dark place, thought to myself, I won’t go to school anymore. And well, fortunately, soccer, not giving up on soccer, led to a different opportunity. And really, I mean, I know there’s opportunity elsewhere, but Oklahoma has provided me all the opportunity that I need, for now. But fortunately, you know, I was able to attend a Mid-America Christian University on a full-ride scholarship on soccer and academics. Once I finished that, in 2012 is when DACA came through, through the Obama administration. And then I started thinking, I can actually work. I can actually drive legally, and my parents can go to sleep without having to worry about what’s going to happen to me if I get stopped by the police or anything like that. And then I started thinking about my future, obviously. I was a math major at that time and I thought, you know, I can teach some math or do something of that sort. Be a tutor. But that didn’t play out. And I started working with an attorney and translating, and he’s the one that mentored me through the law school process and said, go to law school. Math majors are the most likely to succeed. I didn’t believe it. I had to Google that.
(laughter)
Hernandez: It turns out it’s true. The way you solve your formulas and all that, you know, analytical thinking plays a big role into the law, the interpretation of the law and writing. And so now I’ve got my Green Card, I’m happily married, and I’m a three-year attorney. And that is all because of that opportunity that presented to my family back in 1993 when we first arrived to Oklahoma, you know? And so I’m grateful for that, grateful for, you know, the opportunities that we’ve been presented here. But I do think that a big thing in my role as an immigration attorney is challenging these racist policies, right? That goes into fighting the 287
(g) agreements that the Oklahoma County jail has with ICE and disturbing that deportation pipeline to help keep our families close and nearby and at home, you know, and so that’s a daily battle for me, and continuing to provide opportunity for others that have that come after us. So that is Oklahoma for me.
Thompson: Well, that’s a fascinating story, and thanks so much for sharing about that. And, you know, someone like me, you know, I certainly can’t imagine the trials and the hardships that you had to go through to get to where you are today. So it’s just such a privilege to hear that story. And I want to turn to Brooke now. And, you know, Brooke, you knowing who your parents are, you were raised here in Oklahoma, born here in Oklahoma?
Brooke Haney: Born in Shawnee, Oklahoma, at Mission Hill Hospital, a Native hospital.
Thompson: Okay.
Haney: And then I grew up about 20 minutes away from there.
Thompson: So tell us a little bit, you obviously didn’t come from anywhere else, but you also have a very distinct culture that you were raised in. Tell us what it was like for you to grow up here.
Haney: Well, I mean, we did come from, you know, southeast America.
Thompson: Right.
Haney: The United States. But yeah, so our culture there, we have a lot of traditions. Family is not just the family that you’re born into. That’s a big part of our culture and how I grew up and how my parents taught us. My parents were also very busy, so we weren’t really raised as traditionally as a lot of people in my tribe or in a bunch of our, you know, our cultures, all of the native tribes and Oklahoma specifically. But, it’s definitely different. I mean, I do relate to the “I’m not Native enough. I’m not white enough to fit in either category.” It’s something that I felt, and I struggled with growing up quite a bit. And even I probably, you know, into my late teen years until I graduated high school. I mean, I graduated high school the day I turned 17 years old and got out of there.
You know, I just, I really didn’t feel like I fit in, even starting from when I was in first grade going to elementary in Seminole, I overheard a teacher tell another teacher that my skin was so dark that I looked dirty. And, you know, and this isn’t a place, this is in Seminole, Oklahoma, where there are a lot of Native Americans. There are, I mean, there’s, you know, all kinds of people, but it’s things like that that really impact you, and you take that through life. And it you know, it’s something that made me feel ashamed of who I was or what I looked like. And it wasn’t until much later that I, through my parents’ guidance and the things that they have done for not just the Native Americans in Oklahoma, but for the people of Oklahoma, and showing me that everyone is, you know, has beauty. Every culture is significant and special. You know, it took a long time to get to that point. And once I did, it’s like, it’s just, it was just like a complete rebirth. You know, I felt so much freer. I didn’t feel that shame. I didn’t feel timid and shy. I didn’t feel like, you know, I couldn’t voice my opinion because it didn’t matter or didn’t matter as much, you know, as the person next to me. That’s just, that’s something that really I felt growing up here in Oklahoma. And, you know, it’s not the first racist thing I’ve heard, and it hasn’t been the last, you know, unfortunately. But I do feel like things, although it will be a problem for many years to come, I do feel like it’s gotten so much better since I was a kid, you know, in the ’80s, and the ’90s. Even my son, you know, I mean, he’s as dark as I am, you know, and he doesn’t, it’s amazing. He doesn’t think about it. You know, he knows a lot about his culture. That’s part of who he is. But it’s not something that he feels makes him so different that he has to, you know, be ashamed or, you know, not say what he wants to say, you know, and I really, I really appreciate that now.
And I don’t know, I mean, I really think it’s because of my parents and I mean, my mom, she’s been a tribal lawyer for, I mean, since, you know, the ’70s. And my dad was a representative, a senator. He’s had a TV show. He painted signs. He was the president of JCPenney at one point. Like, he’s done so many things. I mean, it’s wild. If you talk to this man, there’s nothing he hasn’t done. He did the sculpture on top of the Capitol building. He got a lot of funding to make this place happen. The place we’re in right now, the new cultural center that just opened, you know, and it’s just through hard work and determination and knowing that you aren’t any different, you know? And I feel like that’s been something really amazing that he’s not only shown me and my son, but a lot of other people. I mean, I have people come up to me all the time telling me how much both of my parents have influenced them into going into law or, you know, becoming an artist or getting into politics or, you know, no matter what it is. And it’s really amazing, and it’s something I just really appreciate about the way that they, you know, raised all of us, pretty much, you know, through the public eye.
Thompson: You mentioned your son. Do you consciously try to raise him as cognizant of his Native heritage and, you know, to help him understand where he comes from? Or does he get it just by seeing you and your father and the people he’s around?
Haney: I think it’s both. I mean, I definitely make a point to talk to him about things, you know, to talk to him about our culture, to sing him the songs. We’ve been watching Reservation Dogs together, which my friend Sterlin Harjo, you know, he put, you know, started that whole thing. The music, my grandfather was a flute player. Most of, lots of my family are different types of artists, basket makers, jewelry makers, all kinds of really amazing, beautiful kinds of work. And so he has grown up seeing it. But I also make a point to tell him the stories and, you know, show him where he comes from. I think it’s really important for him to know.
Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. I have a question for Sunu and Javier, and I think you alluded to it a little bit, but how much did your parents attempt to emphasize your culture as you were growing up, your heritage, where you came from? And then how much did they also want you to be American, you know, to integrate into the culture that we have, the prevailing culture?
Kodumthara: So my parents, and I’ve talked to my parents in recent years about this, because one of the issues that I’ve held in bitterness about, with them about, is I feel like I could be more fluent in our native language than I am now. And I’ve asked them, why didn’t we speak, or why didn’t you teach us how to speak this native language when we were in Denver? Why did you wait until, you know, we moved here? And one of the things that my dad said was, well, we just thought that since you guys were going to school and, you know, and you were being raised around predominantly an American community, we just thought it would be best if we only spoke English around you. And so that was what we did. That was the approach we took. And then suddenly, we moved to Oklahoma. There’s a larger Indian community, and it wasn’t like they spoke more Malayalam at home. That was our native language. Sorry if I threw you off there. She was spoken gibberish. But it was just that by being around the community more, we picked it up by hearing it. That’s what happened. We just heard it more and more. And because we were young, that’s how we learned it. We would hear it in songs. We would hear it in conversation. We would hear it in church services. And so, that’s how we learned it.
And interestingly enough, my grandmother said to my father, or said to my both of my parents once, this was when we were living in Denver. She said to them, I would like to be able to speak to my grandchildren. And I guess they, I guess they didn’t realize, you know, how impactful not teaching us their native language would be until she had said that. And then once we moved to Oklahoma and started learning the language and started having conversations with both sets of grandparents, they realized, oh, they can now have their own conversations and develop their own relationship and have that communication. So, it wasn’t like they were intentional in teaching us, but it just sort of happened accidentally, thankfully.
Hernandez: I think the language is a big part for my family. And really I think in the, I’m going to say in the Mexican culture, is that family and food, those are the two, the two big ones. And my mom always connected through the food. And I think my aunts would agree that my mom is the best cook in the family
(laughing). I’ll ask them later, but I think that that was the the main source of culture that I received from my family, is the food and the family gatherings. Every holiday, we spent together as a family. And I think that was the two things that really connected us. I think that part of the, maybe not connecting so much with, like Día de los Muertos or Los Reyes Magos, which is our Christmas and our Halloween, is maybe part of this idea of not being able to celebrate in Mexico. And so I think it was hard for them to bring themselves to celebrate that here, when they couldn’t celebrate it in their home country. And I like the way you said, I hold it in bitterness against them.
Because when I was able to visit Mexico for the first time in 27 years back in December, after coming back from that trip, I felt so much closer and tied to my culture than ever in my life. And now I, like, get goosebumps talking about Mexico. I almost cry when I hear the anthem and celebrating Día de los Muertos, and I think that comes with me also growing as a person and being able to experience that, knowing in the back of my head, that I don’t know when my parents will get to visit Mexico again. And so me being able to bring that sense of culture and that Mexican patriotism is huge now, and I think it’s going to be huge for like my niece. And in the future, if I have kids, to be able to push that on them and not just let them be a part of the culture that they’re surrounded by and say, this is where you come from.
Blackburn: Trait, just let me add a little story here about the Vietnam community. In the 1990s, we had a young intern who was Vietnamese, and she was bilingual, and she had learned the language in the home and the Vietnamese community here in Oklahoma City. And she did an internship with us. So we assigned her a project of going out to the Vietnamese elders who had come here after the Fall of Saigon, those who spoke only Vietnamese, and interviewing them. And even though the interviews were in Vietnamese and we never were able to get them translated, we captured those stories. And then fast-forward 25 years, we wanted to do an exhibit on the war in Vietnam. We had those interviews. We had their experiences firsthand. We’re able to pull those out of our collections, use them to tell a story about another, about their generations.
And one thing we learned is that many of those young people also were not fluent in the language. And they said, why? I don’t know why my parents didn’t teach me. Now, when I go back to Vietnam, I can’t talk to my aunts and uncles and cousins. And so that second generation, I think, typically is pushed to using English more often. And then I know your father still speaks Seminole. I’ve heard him speak very fluently, and I’d be curious to see if he passed that on to you. And of course, he’s not second generation. And I knew your grandfather as well. We had him at the old Historical Society playing the flute. But Kelly, I know, has shared his language and very proudly speaks that language.
Haney: Oh, absolutely. I mean, he still speaks at home. Not as often anymore, but he did growing up. And then my grandmother lived with us for a while, and she did, too. We learned a lot from her. My son, he knows when he’s in trouble, you know,
Kodumthara: Everybody knows when they’re in trouble in their native language. Everybody.
Haney: Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, he didn’t, we picked things up from being in around the culture. Nobody’s really sat down with us and tried to, you know, show us the language. But, you know, I mean, Creek was my dad’s first language, so English was his second language. And I think it is part of that in that, you know, just moving past that and just going full, you know, American, whatever you think that is at the time. I don’t know why people make the choices that they do, but it does seem like a lot of people do do that. I, you know, I wish I knew more of my language. I know all the bad words, you know.
(laughter)
Haney: I know a lot of the songs. I know a lot of the hymns and things like that. My siblings and I, I’m one of seven, and we know enough to get on each other’s nerves or, you know, things like that. But yeah, it’s definitely something that I would like to explore more, especially as my son gets older. He, I mean, I speak to him what little I know, and my dad does too, so it’s definitely something that I hope he keeps up. I know my nephew Matthew, he’s really taken it upon himself to specifically go out and learn the language, and he’s been doing just a wonderful job. And he’s at Seminole State College now, but it’s something I really hope that he keeps up because he’s getting really great at it. And it makes me really proud to see the younger generations really stepping up and wanting to learn more about where they come from, about their culture. So, especially with something like our language, which, if you know, Native languages are dying so fast, and there are not that many people, you know, that still speak fluently. So I think it’s really important.
Blackburn: Trait, one last comment from me on Indian country. There’s a real awareness that the language is so important to a culture, and it’s the same with you two. Your culture, the way you express yourself, the way you talk about emotions, and family, and the world around you. A lot of it, it comes back to language. Well, my third and last book that I did was the history of the Cherokee Nation, and I brought it up to the present date. Under Bill John Baker, when he was principal chief, they put an emphasis on immersion schools. So in the Cherokee Nation today, if a person wants their child to learn the language and the elders are gone and they don’t, they’re not capable of doing it, a child can enroll in one of these immersion schools from childhood. And then, the minute they step into that school, it’s Cherokee only, and it’s reviving the language, which is reviving more of this sense of this worldview that’s uniquely Cherokee, that is the spiritual part of being Cherokee, of relating to the world around us. And I think all of us, the more languages we know, the more we understand about these different cultures, the richer our lives are.
Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. And I one of the things that, before we turn it over to questions, I’d be interested to know just just very briefly, what can we do better? What can we do better as a society to fully embrace the differences and the richness that makes each of us unique and integrate that into our culture?
Kodumthara: Well, I’m going to go back to something, to Brooke’s experience with her teacher for a second, because I had similar experiences. I had a teacher who, I had teachers who blatantly made fun of my name in front of my classmates. But I also had teachers who were who were my heroes, who just I mean, I don’t know where I would be without them. And one of them was my first-grade teacher, who realized that I was being sort of marginalized a little bit because I was the only kid who was.
I showed up in February, so I was already, you know, sticking out anyway. And like, everything was different about me. I’m the oddball with the curly hair, and the brown face, and the weird name, and so she went out of her way to make sure that the other kids understood that I was smart and capable and all of this stuff. But she also made sure that I understood it too, and that stayed with me. I mean, I’m going to be 42 next Friday, and that feeling still stays with me. And I was six. So I’ve got to say, to have advocates like that is so important because those little moments are actually really big moments. Those are transformative moments.
So if we can, you know, as a community, I hate saying society because it seems like such a big word. If we can just see ourselves as a community of people and to look out for each other like that and see each other as just, you know, fellow human beings rather than you’re a different people, and you’re a different people, and you’re a different people. If I can just see Javier as, you’re a fellow human being, and I’m just going to have your back, and I don’t like how you’re being marginalized. So I’m gonna just, I’m gonna just stick right by you and, you know, and I’m just going to cover you and make sure you’re okay. If I can see him like that. I mean, that’s what makes all the difference. That’s what happened on that day when my teacher covered me, and that made all the difference for me. And I feel like that’s really what would make us better together. That’s my solution. So get on that, everybody.
Thompson: Let’s all make that our homework assignment, right? Javier, what do you what do you say?
Hernandez: Yeah. I think, in the immigrant community, we talk a lot about sharing our stories, and obviously, sharing means people have to listen. And so, I think that as we continue to tell our stories and continue to share our stories, is the only thing that we can ask of others is that they listen and that they attempt to understand where we’re coming from, what we’ve experienced, because a lot of people will never understand what we’ve gone through. But you can try. And so I think that is one of the biggest things that I think we can do, is continue to try to listen, and people like us continue to share our stories.
Thompson: How about you, Brooke?
Haney: You know, I think people need to be nice and kind. And, you know, I mean that along with, you know, what everybody here has been saying today. Listening, sharing your stories. I really think it just comes down to remembering that you’re a part of humanity, and we’re all on the same circle, as my dad always says, and nobody is more important than the other. That is the other thing he says quite frequently. And it’s true. You know, I think the more we think about each other as just friends, you know, the better, the better we’ll all be.
Thompson: Well put. Well said. Thank you. Okay, let’s have some questions. If any of you have any questions, I can bring you a microphone here. Anybody have a question?
(AUDIENCE MEMBER #1) As I listen to the three of you, and then I don’t know, this is probably for Dr. Bob, but we have spent generations with immigrants trying to wipe out everything so they can be like us. Is there a formulation on how many generations that we can become special, like you’re talking about, that we can diversify and still respect that. I’d like to see. I don’t think there’s an answer.
Blackburn: One thing I’ve noticed that the Historical Society, and this goes back to my own education, you know, finished the PhD. I was going to write books and do history. When I got to the Historical Society, I realized how important family research was to so many people, and quickly embraced the genealogical community and some of our best allies. And 95% of the research done here is on families. I think that’s the place where we can make a difference is we study our own families. And me understanding my grandmother, who helped raise me, and my, I’m third-generation Irish American and understanding that line, understanding the Cherokee line, understanding the German. I think then that’s helped me understand. And I think that we’ve got to preserve these stories. This is a plug for the Historical Society.
All of these stories we’ve been hearing today should be recorded in oral histories and deposited here so their children and grandchildren can reach back and say, oh, that’s the way grandma felt or granddad felt. And I think family research will always be an emphasis here. And that’s a place that we really need to emphasize that we all can learn more about ourselves and our place in the world.
Thompson: Any other thoughts on that particular question?
Kodumthara: There is no solution. There is no answer. Is that acceptable? No, I think that’s a really interesting question to ask because you’re right. I think, for my parents, my parents were under the impression that once you come here, especially if you’re raising children here, the responsibility is they need to adopt everything that is American so that they can be well adjusted, whatever that means. And that’s why they never really put the emphasis on learning the language and anything like that. And so, you know, I, think in a lot of ways they do regret some of those decisions.
But I think, you know, if you look at people in my generation who are now raising children of their own, one of the things that makes me really happy and proud to see is that they are making sure that their children are learning the language as young as possible, that they are learning more about, you know, South Asian history and that culture, and those traditions, and trying to embrace being from Kerala; embrace, you know, South Asian food and, you know, knowing and understanding that Kerala food is better than north Indian food. I said it and write it down. All of those, you know, you know, being proud of who they are as Indian people and as Americans. Those are two identities that are both excellent. And that is I mean, that’s a good thing. That is, and that’s all they need to know.
Thompson: Yeah. Yeah. I want to tag on too, to what Bob said. There’s a scene in the television show Master of None, and the main characters in that show, his parents immigrated from India, and he was raised, you know, as an American and similar to stories that we’ve heard here today. And he decides one day he’s going to just sit down and talk to his father, like he never just sat down and asked his father’s story. And his father starts going through the whole story about how he came over from India. He, you know, he had a wife who, they had just been married. They didn’t have hardly any money. And he starts to recognize just all the hardships that his parents went through to immigrate over and all the sacrifices they made. And he gets a whole new appreciation for his parents and his culture. And I would say that a great thing to do along those lines is start telling stories. Start asking parents, you know, hey, can you tell and record it? Like Bob said, let’s record these stories and let’s get them on the record so that we can have those to pass those down so that they don’t get lost along the way. So great question. Any other questions?
(AUDIENCE MEMBER #2) Well, Trait beat me to it a little bit and that he always seems to like to bring pop culture to this. And in doing that, Brooke, I have a question. You talked about Reservation Dogs. I would be interested in how your dad, you, and your son feel about the show, and what do you think of, is it a groundbreaking show portraying Native people? Just tell me, tell me what you think about Reservation Dogs.
Haney: I think that it is absolutely groundbreaking. All three of us love it in different ways, too. For me, it definitely reminds me, a little ashamed to say this, but it reminds me of my brothers, my cousins and I, just living in a tiny town and not having anything to do and just walking around, you know, when there were no cell phones or, you know, internet. Just kind of making our own fun and not doing anything too illegal.
(laughter)
Thompson: There was no chip truck stolen.
Haney: There were—no! Okay. Well, okay. Never mind.
(laughter)
(BLACKBURN0 You’re protected by statute of limitations. It can’t be processed.
Haney: It wasn’t me. Okay. I will tell you that. But, you know, for me, it just it reminds me of a time. It was definitely, my cousins and my siblings, we, I mean, we were like brothers and sisters, all of us, you know? And it just reminds me of just being a kid and having fun and having all of those, you know, the folklore of the Native community kind of comes to life. And the reality of, you know, being at the IHS trying to get a doctor’s appointment. You know, lots of things like that, you know, random, you know, elders telling you to do something and you do it because I they’re apparently your grandfather or, you know, your grandma, even though they’re really not, you know. You just, you have a different respect for elders and our culture. I think it’s just very well written. I think it’s great. The characters remind me of home so much. I just really appreciate it. My dad, in particular, loves, he really loved the last episode with the tornado.
Hernandez: Don’t tell me what happens. I’ve only watched the first two episodes.
Haney: Well, I won’t give it away too.
Thompson: You’re like, spoiler alert.
Haney: Yeah, but there is a bit with like an accident, and it’s when you get to that, think about my dad because this is, it’s definitely what he tells me every time a storm comes. This is what he does. So on that note, I encourage all of you to watch it so you can watch the very last episode. I’m really happy for everyone involved. I went to film school with most of the people that made this, so I’m very proud of everything that they’ve done. Yeah, it’s really neat. I think also, going back to the question of what can we do to change things as far as to have more appreciation and for other cultures and everything. I do think that the arts plays in a lot with it. I think media plays in a lot with it. I’m a musician. I’ve been playing music since I was eight. I got my first guitar. I think there’s just so much art out there, whether it’s in, you know, TV. Hopefully, there will be more representation for all different kinds of people. You know, I certainly am appreciative of of what Sterlin has done for my culture. So I think things like that are really important as well.
Blackburn: One thing that gives me hope is that, you know, when I was growing up, if you turn on the TV, you saw Leave It to Beaver and Father Knows Best and all white folks and all in the suburbs and all very comfortable. Well, today you turn on the TV, you see the diversity. You see breaking down those stereotypes, and in this TV show, and I love it for that reason. It’s breaking down the stereotypes that most people think. But the diversity you see, it’s Asian, Southeast Asian, Latino, it’s just everywhere. And if you watch commercials, I’m, of course, maybe I’m just a basically an optimist. But as a historian, I’ve seen the progress we’ve made, and I see we’re still making it. And I think we’re still going to continue to progress and get better and love each other more. Just I think that’s the natural way of life. And I see it in popular culture as reflecting that right now.
Hernandez: Brooke, may I ask what you were going to say? Your grandfather says something every time a storm is coming.
Haney: Okay, well, my dad.
Hernandez: Your dad.
Haney: If a storm is coming, he just moved in with us that long ago. But before, he would, I would call him to make sure, you know, because tornadoes would be outside, looking for him. And, you know, my dad, he was like, I’m not going to go hide. He’s like, I put an ax in the front yard. And that’s, so in our culture, that’s how you can make the storm turn away from you. You basically challenge it to a fight. So, anyway, that’s the part in the show, but it’s a really good part. You’ll see it.
Thompson: And really, there’s no more Oklahoma thing to do than challenge a tornado to a fight.
Haney: Absolutely.
Kodumthara: That’s accurate. That’s accurate.
Thompson: And on that note, I want to thank all of our panelists here tonight. This has been such a wonderful evening, and thank you so much for sharing all of your stories. And I think we’ve all been enriched by hearing about your experiences growing up in Oklahoma. And we just want to encourage you to listen to our podcast, the BrainBox podcast. Where can people find that one?
Kodumthara: You can catch BrainBox anywhere that you listen to podcasts. So please, please subscribe to BrainBox because I’m one of the new co-hosts. Thanks, guys.
Thompson: And Dr. Blackburn and I are co-hosts of A Very OK Podcast. This is our Oklahoma history podcast, and you can find that the same place, you can find at Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, and all the other places you get podcasts, as well. So we would love it if you listen to us and give us some feedback, and it’s our pleasure to do this. So thank you all for coming out tonight and we have had a wonderful time.
(upbeat music playing over applause)
