A Very OK Podcast
Episode 8: “The Battle of Honey Springs”
October 20, 2021
Episode Transcript
Trait Thompson: Hello, and welcome to A Very OK Podcast. My name is Trait Thompson. I am the executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society, and I am here, as always, with the former executive director, Dr. Bob Blackburn. Bob, how are you doing today?
Dr. Bob Blackburn: I’m doing great, Trait. And as a “has-been” around here, I still feel welcome and always enjoy coming up and seeing the new collections and seeing what’s going on. It’s an exciting place here at the History Center.
Thompson: And you know, I called you last week on the phone, and you were on your way out, your grandson was visiting, and you were on your way out to play some basketball with your grandson. How did that come out for you?
Blackburn: I lost. He was playing the role of LeBron James from some movie recently, so I had to be the bad guys. So he was dunking on me every shot. So a four year old took advantage of my old age.
Thompson: Well, I hope your ego has recovered since then, and we also have a special guest with us here today. We are here with Adam Lynn. Adam is the director of the Honey Springs Battlefield site. This is an Oklahoma Historical Society site. He’s been director out there for four years. So Adam, welcome to the podcast. We are so great to have you on. We’re going to talk about the Battle of Honey Springs, today. Tell us a little bit about yourself, and tell us about the Honey Springs Battlefield site.
Adam Lynn: First, I want to say thank you guys so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here and talk about Honey Springs and its history. It’s fascinating. But anyway, like I said, like you said, I’ve been the director at the Honey Springs Battlefield and Visitor Center since 2017, going on five years now. And, you know, we have 1,100 acres and six walking trails with over 50 interpretive signs. So we would take you a good four or five hours if you were to walk every trail and read every single sign. And of course, we have the visitor center, which has state-of-the-art exhibits. And, you know, there’s going to be a 3D theater very soon up and running that’s going to detail the history in an immersive experience.
Thompson: Fantastic. Now, where’s the battlefield located? It’s located in Rentiesville, Oklahoma, which is just north of Checotah, just off Highway 69.
Thompson: Very good.
Blackburn: Let me add a little bit about Adam’s background. I first noticed Adam when he was director at the Chisholm Trail Museum in Kingfisher. We owned the site, and we have affiliates that helped run it, and so it’s a good partnership on keeping that museum going. But Adam, during 150th anniversary of the Chisholm Trail, Adam did an exhibit out there, and I went out to give a speech. He had a big crowd. He had the local group energized. They were raising money. They had a new exhibit. And I read Adam’s exhibit on the history of the Chisholm Trail, and it was spot on. And so when we had an opening at Honey Springs, we thought of Adam, and Kathy Dickson had, of course, you know, interviewed people for that job, but Adam applied for it. That is his home country there, McIntosh County, Oklahoma.
Lynn: Yes, it is. And it’s wonderful to be back home.
Blackburn: So we jumped all over that. And it was a huge challenge, understaffed. And we’ve always had big dreams and great local support. And he has stepped in and has gained the confidence of the local community and has great volunteers, lots of programming, and is doing a great job for us.
Thompson: Well, I can’t imagine anybody else but Adam leading that site out there. He’s passionate about the Civil War. He’s passionate about the history of the battle and what it meant for Oklahoma, and I can’t wait to get into our conversation and talk more about the battle. But first, we always like to talk a little pop culture before we get started. And with the Civil War being our topic today, let’s talk favorite Civil War movies. And of course, there’s a lot of great ones out there. But Adam, do you have a favorite?
Lynn: Well, Lincoln is probably the top of the list, my favorite. And there’s many, but I really do enjoy Lincoln.
Thompson: Daniel Day-Lewis inhabited Lincoln. I mean, I can’t even, if Lincoln walked through the door, I would say, you don’t look like Daniel Day-Lewis. I mean, he did such a great job in that role.
Blackburn: Greatest actor; of course, mine, especially with the Honey Springs theme, has to be Glory with Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman and a great cast. But it’s about African Americans during the Civil War and the attack at the end of the movie is on Fort Wagner, South Carolina. It was the day before the Battle of Honey Springs.
Thompson: The day after.
Blackburn: The day after, excuse me. And of course, the 54th Massachusetts lost that battle out here in the West, and the abolitionists jumped all over this victory. And we’ll talk about that a little bit more. But I met Morgan Freeman. I had met him before that. He was looking at doing a movie about Bass Reeves, and he had come to the historical society back at the old building. So I got to meet him. And so it was special to me for both the meaning, the acting in that, the emotion. I still cry when I watch that movie.
Thompson: Yeah. You know, Frederick Douglass, two of his sons fought in the 54th Massachusetts, and Frederick Douglass actually recruited, heavily recruited, and he wrote and encouraged African Americans to join that as a way to show their patriotism and their devotion to the cause of getting rid of slavery. And it was, that was certainly an important regiment. And we’re going to talk a little bit later about how the First Kansas was just as important, or maybe more, in terms of from the historic perspective. So, we’ll be excited to talk about that.
For me, my favorite Civil War movie, Gettysburg, and the reason for that, came out in 1993 and of course, just had an incredible cast of people. Martin Sheen played Robert E. Lee. You have Tom Berenger, plays Longstreet. We have Jeff Daniels, who plays Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, and then C. Thomas Howell, who plays Chamberlain’s brother, and of course, his right-hand man in that. But my favorite scene in that movie was the scene at Little Round Top. And when the Union Army is running out of ammunition and the Confederates keep charging up the hill, and charging up the hill, and kind of stretching them out, and thinning their lines, and finally they say, you know, he says, they’ve come up this hill three or four times. They’re bound to be tired. And he orders them to fix bayonets. And there’s this great scene. You can see the just, the fury in his eyes, and he orders everyone to fix bayonets! And then they charge down the hill. And man, I get goosebumps every time I see that scene. It’s just an incredible piece of cinema. And that’s my favorite movie.
Blackburn: Trait, one time I had the privilege of being on a staff ride with the Oklahoma National Guard, doing a staff ride in the field, and we went to Gettysburg. So we had a scholar teaching us, spent three days at Antietam, two days at Gettysburg, and they gave us a little free time. Well, I had to climb to the top of that mountain and look down and look up at what those soldiers, a lot of Texans were in Hood’s brigade there that day, and trying to run up that hill under fire. And then I had to jump up, as you saw in that movie, and try to run down that hill. It’s amazing what those people were willing to do for something they believed in.
Thompson: Wow. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let’s talk a little bit about some Oklahoma history in the Civil War. And I have to admit, when I came to this job a few months ago, one of the subjects that I really didn’t know a lot about was the Civil War history in Oklahoma, and thanks to Adam and his helping to tutor me a little bit, and thanks to Bob and your knowledge of that site. And of course, I’ve had a chance to do some of my own research since then. I have become utterly fascinated with the Battle of Honey Springs and really for what it represents in terms of the people that fought in that battle. You know, you have Native American tribes on both sides of the battle. You have African Americans in the First Kansas Colored Regiment, and it’s just an incredibly unique battle that took place in the Civil War, and I’m not sure that anywhere else in the Civil War can make that claim. But we need to set the stage before we get into the battle. The battle happens July 17, 1863. So we have the tribes, and usually we talk about the Five Tribes or what used to be called the Five Civilized Tribes, and many of them align with the confederacy.
Blackburn: Well, all five tribes. And they had every bit of land in Oklahoma except the Panhandle and old Greer County. The rest of it was assigned to the Five Civilized Tribes: the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole, and Muscogee tribes, and they were all moved out. Well, where did they come from? They all came from the South, and typically in Indian Removal, the Indians in the far northeast went north. Those in the Mid-Atlantic states went to the Ohio River Valley. Those in the south went due west. So that was the pattern of most removals.
Well, they brought their southern culture with them. They had the institution of slavery, African American slaves in all five of the tribes. They based an economy on cotton. And in Oklahoma, that could go down the Arkansas River, down the Red River with their cotton crops. There were Choctaws who had warehouses in New Orleans and in England, where they were shipping out all of these commodities. So by tradition, intermarriage with people in the South, with their economy, with the culture, their political connections, they were southern. And so when the war starts, the Five Tribes are in an awkward position. Basically, whites are the ones who took away their land, whether it was north or south. But the tribes looked at the reality of the Civil War. Arkansas seceded from the Union. Texas seceded from the Union. That’s where most of the trade was happening, and all the economy was going south through the Confederacy. Missouri was split almost 50-50 in the beginning. There were a lot of people that wanted to secede in Missouri. They didn’t quite make it. One of the border states, Kansas, stayed in the Union. So, Kansas being pro-Union, but very few people there. It was really Missouri would have been a bit of a factor, but even more so Arkansas and Texas.
So, as the tribes looked, they said, well, the reality is we may have to deal with this new nation. And then the Confederates sent Albert Pike, an Arkansas journalist, very active in masonry, and he’s one of my favorite characters on the frontier. He’d kind of bounced around the frontiers, got all the way to the West, and he was sent by the Confederate States of America to negotiate with Five Tribes to get them to sign these treaties. And because of all of their connections, the Choctaw and Chickasaw immediately said yes. Not only will we join, we’ll raise a regiment and fight with you, shoulder to shoulder. The Cherokees were the last to hold out. Finally, John Ross decided, for survival, we have got to stay united first, as the Cherokee people. We can’t let our people be split, so we have to stay united. So he did sign a treaty with the Confederacy.
So by the summer of 1861, all five tribes have treaties of alliance. The Confederacy has promised to send troops, to send material, to send money to take on all of the obligations of the federal government, and the Union had withdrawn all of its forces from the Indian Territory. So they saw all these Yankees leaving the territory and fleeing to Kansas, and so it was very natural for them to sign these treaties. Stand Watie would have been the leader of the Confederate faction of the Cherokees. He immediately organizes a regiment. Even before he could, it was authorized. He put together his mounted soldiers. You know, just basically a big posse is what he was doing, putting together the old fighting tradition of the Cherokees. And some of the Creeks, the Muscogee (Creeks), joined some of the Muscogee (Creeks) try to get out of the territory.
The first battles were actually fought with Opothleyahola, a Muscogee (Creek) leader trying to lead some of the pro-Union people out of the territory, and the Confederates organized their forces, and they chase them in three battles before they are dispersed. And then they, most of those loyal Indians ended up in refugee camps in southern Kansas, and then ultimately all the way over to Missouri. And so, that was the beginning of the first action during the Civil War in the Territory. Well, I have a question, and it’s something I’ve always been curious about. Was there any sense of wanting retribution against the United States for Indian removal in aligning with the Confederacy?
Blackburn: I think it was a pragmatic decision, because if you really look who won, who were the ones who confiscated the Cherokee property? Those were Georgian southerners. Who was the president who wanted the tribes out and finally signed the removal order? Andrew Jackson, a Southerner. So really, Southerners were much more involved with removal process than the ones demanding that these tribes be removed. And some of the most diplomatic presidential leaders who wanted to treat the Indians fairly would have been those either from Virginia, of course, with Washington and Jefferson. But then Adams, he wanted to treat with them as independent nations. And so generally, if they had been looking at that split in American society, they would have gone with the Union because they had been trying to treat with them fairly. But the Confederacy made the promises, and for pragmatic reasons, they said, no, we’re going to fight with the South.
Thompson: The tribes sign and align with the Confederacy. So 1861, you know, the Confederates fire on Fort Sumter; April of 1861, the battle begins. And what’s the situation in Indian Territory for that two years leading up to the Battle of Honey Springs?
Blackburn: The Union forces are all removed. Confederates organize. They move all the way north to what was, at that time, Fort Gibson. And they didn’t want to be on the north side of the river, so they established a new camp called Camp Davis. Named after president of the Confederate States, President Davis. And so Camp Davis was established. Really, they needed to control the Arkansas River Valley and the Texas Road would have been the two strategic objectives in those first two years until we get to Honey Springs, and then it’s fought over those two things. Most of the people, most of the wealth was scattered along the Arkansas River Valley because it was navigable. You could connect with markets outside, while the full-bloods would have moved up into the hills to be far away from white culture. The mixed-bloods, those who had the plantations, who had the farms would have been living along river courses, mainly the Red River and the Arkansas, and then the north-south route of transit for men, and material, and goods, and creating wealth would have been the Texas Road that had connected settled-Missouri and settled-Texas in 1821, when Mexico gained its independence from Spain. And so you had these two avenues of commerce, and at the junction there was Fort Gibson. And whoever controlled the Arkansas River Valley could put their sympathizers on the farms, putting in the crops, raising the cattle, providing the things that any army needs to stay in the field. And if the other side came in and kicked you out, then they had their loyalists come in, and that would happen several times. They would flip-flop. First, the Confederates move in, protect the Southern sympathizers. Then the Union comes in in 1862, kicks them out briefly, but then they can’t sustain the effort. They go back to Kansas. Here come the Confederates back.
Largely, a lot of the Indians take it on as an opportunity to attack these blood feuds that go back to the removal, that go back decades into these family feuds. Oh, now we got a good reason to attack. And so it’s really brother against brother, even in the Indian Territory, tribe within the tribe fighting each other and more death and destruction, probably in those first two years than in any part of the old South, even Virginia. More death and destruction per capita in the Indian Territory. So it was a bloody landscape with no one safe from the marauders, and so no one has a real strong foothold. And that’s why we get to the summer of 1863, in one final battle on who would control that junction of the Texas Road and the Arkansas River Valley.
Thompson: So, Adam, we have, meanwhile, while all of this is going on and things are deteriorating in Indian Territory, in 1862, there’s a Kansas senator named James Lane, and he decides that he’s going to raise a regiment of Black soldiers who will be part of the militia. At that point, they weren’t allowed to be a part of the United States Army yet. So tell us about the First Kansas.
Lynn: So the First Kansas, as you alluded to, organized by Senator James Lane, Kansas, 1862. And, you know, there were formerly enslaved individuals who had run away from places like Missouri and Arkansas, and they had made lives for themselves. You know, they were raising farms and working, and they had to be recruited. You know, they knew that had they joined up and fought, that they would be given no quarter, which means that they would either be shot on the spot or taken back or be re-enslaved. So those are some of the factors leading up to the formation of the First Kansas and some of the things going on in their heads. But as far as their formation and their participation at Honey Springs, not a lot of people realized that they were the very first African American regiment to ever fight in the entire Civil War, and that would have been at Island Mound, Missouri, in 1862. They later fought at Cabin Creek and then, of course, at Honey Springs, which would have been their fourth conflict, and they played a large role in Union victory. They were placed right in the very middle of the lines, and they fought for their lives and their futures.
Blackburn: Adam, before you get into the battle itself, introduce two other these actors on this dramatic stage of history: General Blunt and Captain Phillips.
Lynn: General James G. Blunt was the overall general for the Union forces at the Battle of Honey Springs. He actually was from New England. He had moved to Kansas during the Bleeding Kansas years, and he fought alongside and with John Brown and Colonel Phillips, also fought alongside with John Brown during Bleeding Kansas years. They were abolitionists. They were men of God, so to speak, and the Army of the Frontier was one of the most diverse armies to ever fight in the entire Civil War.
Thompson: It’s the Emancipation Proclamation that paves the way for the First Kansas to be mustered into the Union Army. And at that point, they’re no longer a Kansas militia, but they are fully a part of the Union Army. They’re mustered in on January 13, 1863, at Fort Scott in Kansas. And I think it’s important to note— you alluded to it earlier, Adam— but first of all, if they were caught or captured by the Confederates, they could be subject to going back to be enslaved or they could be killed on the spot. There was really no quarter that the Confederates offered to Black soldiers that were caught in battle. And then they also were paid less than their white counterparts as well, and they had to pay for their own uniforms.
Lynn: That’s correct. And with all of these factors coming into play, I could not imagine the bravery and the sacrifice that they had to endure. And it’s just amazing.
Thompson: Colonel James Williams said, “This will be no mere struggle for conquest, but a struggle for their own freedom. A determined and, as I believe, irresistible struggle for the disenthralment a people who have long suffered oppression and wrong at the hands of our enemies.”
Lynn: Right. And so as we talk about the beginnings of the battle itself, as the divisions are on the right and the left of the, or are placed on the right and left of the Texas Road. Colonel Williams, who is commanding, those are the First Kansas. And as they are waiting for the beginning of the battle, he states that, to his soldiers, he gives a very impassioned speech. He says, “Soldiers never fought for a holier cause. The preservation in the Union and the equal rights and freedom of all men. You know what the soldiers of the southern armies are fighting for? The continued extension of slavery on this continent. And if they are successful to take you, your wives and children, back into slavery.” And he goes on, but it just gives me chills every time I see it. If you go to trail number two, that’s roughly where the First Kansas was located. And I always tell people, if you look to the left, you look to the right. That’s where this impassioned speech happened. And you knew that they were fighting for their freedoms and that they had extra reason to fight.
Thompson: Yeah. Before we get into the battle itself, I think we should probably talk a little bit about the prelude, what’s happening to lead up to the battle. And so we have in—first of all, the Union takes back control of Fort Gibson, like Bob was talking about earlier. You’ve kind of got this back and forth with Fort Gibson the whole time between the Confederates and the Union. Union takes back control of Fort Gibson in the spring, but they’re strung out. There are 120 miles from their supply source, which is at Fort Scott in Kansas. Correct?
Lynn: That is correct.
Thompson: And then in late June, the First Kansas, under Colonel Williams, they march, they have a supply train that’s coming down to provide supplies to Fort Gibson. I have here 200 wagons and 900 soldiers that had to make this march, guard the supply train, and get down there. So, but they encounter a little resistance at Cabin Creek. So, Bob, what’s going on at Cabin Creek?
Blackburn: Well, Cabin Creek is a low-water crossing close to Vinita, Oklahoma, today, so people can kind of visualize where that was. So coming out of Kansas, and it’s a low-water crossing, and all of the Indians would have known that’s where it was. It was on the Texas Road and had been a fairly well-established travel corridor for years. Stand Watie, Stand was at that, wasn’t he? The first one.
Lynn: He sure was.
Blackburn: The Battle of Cabin Creek. And Stand Watie and the Cherokees, they were a very mobile cavalry. You know, if you think of the Civil War, you think of the great cavalry leaders and this new mobile force that could move so quickly and so effectively. Well, Stand Watie was one of the greatest of all the cavalry leaders. He and his Indian troops all knew how to ride. They knew the terrain. They knew the families where they could get fresh mounts, and they attacked that supply train. And this would have been one of three battles at Cabin Creek, happens to be another site owned by the Oklahoma Historical Society, and people can visit that today. And, you know, this is an aside, but later we would do archaeology at the site, and we would find remnants of wagons burned on that field. But the Indians attack, and the First Kansas Colored Regiment defends the wagon train. And the reason it was so important to Blunt and to those Union commanders is that they were not feeding just the soldiers at the fort. A lot of people think there’s just a fort surrounded by this sea of nothingness. Well, there would have been Indian families on all those farms around there. They had planted their crops in the spring. That’s one reason they came in in the spring, so the Indians could get their crops in, and the crops were growing. That was going to be food and fiber to support the army, and they needed to feed those Indian families. And so, this was life or death.
And the First Kansas Colored Regiment fought bravely, got supplies through. Now, later, after the war, and we can talk about this later. It would be a different outcome at Cabin Creek, but that was an important point, that those troops proved themselves worthy of the uniform, and their obligations, and their patriotism.
Thompson: Yeah. Adam, this was their first major test since being mustered into the Union Army that they had to face. And Stand Watie, as Bob said, was no small potatoes. This was a general who knew what he was doing.
Lynn: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I could not, like I said, we could not imagine what was going on in their heads. But the fact that they were able to fight and fend off such a formidable force as Stand Watie and the Confederate forces there at Cabin Creek is amazing.
Thompson: I’ve got a quote here from The Chronicles of Oklahoma spring 1969 edition, and this was written by Lary Rampp. “The action at Cabin Creek proved without a doubt that the Negro troops were good fighters. They had fought and defeated a superior foe who did not give quarter. Colonel Williams had a regiment he could be proud of and depend on in tough situation.”
Blackburn: Now, Trait, now while all of that is happening, let’s move south of the river and the Confederates. What were the Confederates thinking? Well, if you’ll think back to the summer of 1863, what is Jefferson Davis thinking? What is Robert E. Lee thinking, and Longstreet, and all these leaders of the Confederacy? Well, they could not survive a stalemate much longer. They had prevented the Union from invading the South, pretty much. But they were blockaded. So trade was limiting them. They did not have the industrial base the North had. They did not have the manpower. And in the early battles, the Confederates, even though they were winning, were losing more people. That old Celtic fighting tradition was coming out on those southern boys. And so they were, the war of attrition was going poorly. So they said, we have got to take the war to the north. We have got to win public opinion in the North that they’re not going to win this war swiftly. And so we have to prove that we are going to stand our ground and hope that in the elections of 1864, Lincoln would be out, you know, the Copperheads would come in. Those that favored a negotiated treaty and allowing the South its independence. So they had to do something.
Well, in the far East, of course, that led to the Battle of Gettysburg, July of 1863, same battle we’re talking about, on the Mississippi River, which was the critical junction of the south to the west and really the breadbasket in Texas, what it was providing for the war effort, was being split at what we call the Siege of Vicksburg. That’s where US Grant proved his medal, later would be rewarded with command of the Union troop for the rest of the war. Well, that’s July of 1863. Well, in the far West, again, let’s take the war to the north. And the idea was to go up to recapture Fort Gibson, establish control of the Arkansas River Valley to keep to the north of the river safe, to the south of the river, protect Confederate Texas. Help protect Confederate Arkansas. Fort Smith, which was the Gibraltar on the Arkansas. So, here they said, okay. General Douglas Cooper, who had been the agent to the Choctaws and Chickasaws, who was actually a boyhood friend of President Davis of the Confederacy. They grew up together in Mississippi. So he had this plum assignment. He’d made the commanding officer there in the Indian Territory. Indians trusted him. He trusted them. And they said, we are going to gather men and material at a little depot on the Texas Road south of Fort Gibson called Honey Springs. It was a little Creek community. Some of us believe there may have been more Muskogee (Creeks) living in that area than there are now people, so more people living in that area. So it was a populated area, cultivated fields, herds of cattle and horses, at least when the war began.
And so they were going to go to Honey Springs, gather in what they could, and then General Cabell from Arkansas was going to march in with his well-trained and well-equipped troops, and together they would join forces, march the 24 miles north to Fort Gibson, up the Texas Road, attack, far outnumber the Union forces at the time, and then take control of the valley. That was the goal, just as General Lee’s goal was to go into Pennsylvania and win a battle, come back, win the public relations battle. And so that’s what’s happening in early July of 1863, gathering those troops. And when we get to July 16, the only forces that Cooper had been able to gather were largely his Indian troops. He had a few troops from Texas.
Thompson: And Cabell hadn’t linked up with him yet.
Blackburn: Had not linked up yet. He’s on the way. Well, he’s on the way, and mainly Indian troops who never were really proficient. You know what you see in the movies, they are standing shoulder to shoulder, and firing, and marching, and firing. Indian troops didn’t like to fight that way. They fought differently. And so a traditional battle was really not going to be in favor of those Indian troops. But that’s what he had at the time. And then the Texas regiments, largely from north Texas, defending their homes, didn’t want the Yankees marching down into their home country. So they had motivation to fight. And largely they were fighting for their brothers, and their cousins, and the people they knew, you know, in their own companies. So, he had them. He had poor powder that was imported from Mexico. He only had four pieces of artillery, and one of those was a mountain rifle, so really not an effective piece of artillery. Did not have any heavy artillery, no 12-pounders. And so he knew he had disadvantages. And then the Union forces discover what’s going on. I’m going to hand that over to Adam.
Thompson: Adam, when you get into this, here’s what I would like to hear when we get into this: first of all, most of our listeners probably haven’t been out to Honey Springs. Why is Honey Springs significant as a place for the Confederates to put their supply depot? And then also, what’s the battlefield like? Because I think in our heads, when we picture a battlefield, we picture this wide open expanse, two armies, especially of that era, just facing off at each other. But this battlefield, the terrain is a lot different. So I’d love for you to get into that.
Lynn: Yeah, the terrain is quite a bit different than most battlefields you would normally think of. As far as the supplies and why the depot is located there at Honey Springs is simply because Honey Springs, you know, that was a major water source for people traveling the Texas Road, and it was located along the Texas Road. And it is, you know, there would have been trees and brush on that battlefield. And that’s the thing that’s different about this battlefield as compared to others, as you alluded to. It’s not all wide open spaces. As a matter of fact, trails three and four are really in the middle of the woods. And they’re very, you know, I hate to say this, talking about the history of a battle, but if you walk and you’re hiking, it’s a beautiful area. But the trees and the brush played a large role in what happened there at the battle.
Thompson: They can’t see each other, right?
Lynn: They cannot see each other. And the four pieces of artillery for the Confederate forces are hidden, and there are literally writings that allude to that and really verify that. And so, General Blunt orders his forces to span out an offensive formation while simultaneously firing in an attempt to get return fire from those concealed artillery pieces, and that works. And so, the Confederate artillery, they fire back. They know where they’re located. And so that’s really what starts off the Battle of Honey Springs. They had gotten to Honey Springs at 8 o’clock in the morning, where they marched overnight. You know, it rained all night. They were so tired and thirsty that they had literally gathered rain from the puddles that formed water from the night before in their canteens, and General Blunt was running a 103-degree temperature as well. So they needed to rest.
Blackburn: Let me add one thing there that’s always amazed me, is that that’s a 24-mile march at night, in the rain. And typically, when a Civil War army is on the march with supplies and artillery, 20 miles a day is a really good day. That’s about as far as your horses could pull. And so 20 miles a day on, you know, on hay and water is kind of the old saying, well, they march 24 miles overnight in the rain and then the minute they get there, just a brief rest, then they’re told, guys, we’re going into battle.
Thompson: Get into formation.
Blackburn: Get in formation. Eat a little hard tack. You may be a little jerky, but and it’s a hot summer day. For people who’ve been in Oklahoma in July, this is a hot summer day.
Thompson: Wearing wool uniforms.
Blackburn: Wool uniforms with the humidity in that valley and Honey Springs, or Elk Creek is the creek there. And for people like us from western High Plains, you know, Trait, you grew up in west Texas, is that, you know, to us, a river out there is something you can jump across on a good day. Well, Elk Creek is a river to me because it’s 10- to 20-foot banks on either side, a strong rush of water, and there’s a low spot. People have been going across this, and there was a bridge. That bridge would become critical in this battle, and it’s down in this low spot. So if you go on the south side of Elk Creek, that’s up towards Honey Springs, and then if you go to the north, you’re going uphill. So everything comes down into this river valley that is very heavily timbered.
Thompson: Well, Adam, how many troops are we talking about?
Lynn: We’re talking about 9,000 total troops. I always tell people when they come in, this is the absolute largest and most consequential battle to take place in during the Civil War, in what is now Oklahoma, then Indian Territory; 9,000 total troops, 6,000 for the Confederacy, and 3,000 for the Union.
Thompson: And the Union, even though they had a deficit of troops, what was their advantage?
Lynn: Yes, yes. Their artillery. They had 12 pieces of artillery cannon piece as opposed to the Confederates, who only had four.
Thompson: And they didn’t have wet powder.
Lynn: Yes, and they did not have, the Union forces did not have wet powder. So, a lot of those factors came into play. And I couldn’t imagine, like, like Dr. Blackburn said, you know, they crossed overnight, a 24-hour march in the rain, and it would have been a very hot and muggy July 17, 1863, day by the time the battle started.
Thompson: So, okay, we’re here July 17, 1863. We’ve got the troops amassing on both sides. The Confederate troops, which was largely, mostly Native American troops. There were some Texas troops there as well. And then on the Union side, we once again have Native American troops. We have the First Kansas. Talk about how the two sides are aligned on the battlefield and where are they in relation to Elk Creek.
Lynn: So the Confederate forces are in defensive positions north of Elk Creek. They were called the Indian Brigade at the time. You had the, those are the Muscogee (Creek) Nation, First and Second Volunteers on the far left flank. In the middle, you had the Fifth, the 20th, and the 29th Texas. And on the right side you had the First and Second Cherokees, and on the Union side, on the right flank, you had the First Wisconsin, the Second Indian Home Guard, then you had the First Kansas, the Second Colorado, and then the First Indian Home Guard and the Sixth Kansas. So you had several regiments, and they were facing one another prior to this conflict.
Now, I will say that General Blunt did organize his troops into two columns before they spanned out in these offensive formations. And the reason he did this is because he wanted to conceal from the fact that as long as he could from the Confederates to make them think that the Union had more troops than they really did.
Thompson: So, before the battle starts, Colonel Williams says this to his First Kansas troopers. He says, “Show the enemy this day that you are not asking for quarter and that you know how and are eager to fight for your freedom.” So he’s rallying the troops up. Who makes the first move?
Lynn: The Confederates. Well, I say, as far as the artillery is concerned, yes, the Confederates fire first because simultaneously, the Union forces are spanned out in the offensive formations where they fire, and they’re trying to get return fire from the Confederate artillery, where they can’t see them. They’re concealed behind the trees and the brush. And so an artillery duel, along with firing on both sides, goes along for about an hour and a half or so, when something changes that starts the beginning, for the end for the Confederate forces.
Blackburn: And Trait, I always like to add, for people who haven’t studied the military history, is that that mountain rifle could easily fire very accurately over a mile. And one of Blunt’s party that’s standing up on a ridge, kind of looking down this valley, that mountain rifle takes out one of the men in his party up there on that hill, and a 12-pounder, and the Union forces had, how many of the 12-pounders Adam do they have?
Lynn: They had a mixture of 12- and six-pounders.
Blackburn: So the 12-pounder could easily shoot a mile of accuracy. If you could see something a mile away, especially after you get the range and all, man, you can hit that spot time and time again. And these crews are very efficient, you know, cleaning, swabbing, reloading, firing, clean, swab, fire. And this is going on, and you can imagine the noise, the smoke would have been going down into this valley mixing with that humidity. And so that one hour roughly in time, it’s when you’ve got your heads down. You’re against the ground. You’re behind the trees just trying to not get hit by shrapnel, and of course, not wanting to get hit by a ball. And it must have been a frightening time, and that’s partly why most armies would start with the artillery fire, try to cause some fear among those other troops. And then when you get an infantry charge, a masked gunfire, gun fighting power, an attack, and then hopefully they would flee.
Thompson: So, you have the First Kansas is supporting Captain Smith’s artillery on the right flank. But they’re in a very critical spot on, you know, they’re not playing backup. They’re right up at the front.
Lynn: Right in the very middle of the lines. And it’s interesting, Dr. Blackburn, you brought up the smoke and everything. They are ordered to fix bayonets early on, and try to slowly move forward and capture these artillery pieces that now they knew were there. And this artillery duel happens, you know, for about an hour and a half. And then by the way, there were two cannons that were from the Confederate forces and Frederick’s side, and the Union side that were destroyed early on. So anyway, they’re moving forward, and those on their right flank, he had the Second Indian Home Guard, and they accidentally got in front of their own men, rather than have their own men get hit by friendly fire or the enemy, their commander ordered them to fall back.
Thompson: And by this time, Colonel Williams is wounded.
Lynn: Yes, I’m sorry. Colonel Boles is now in charge. Sorry, yes.
Blackburn: Of the First Kansas Colored Regiment.
Lynn: The First Kansas. That’s right.
Thompson: Yeah. General Blunt is still in charge of the whole thing, but Colonel Williams has fallen. He didn’t die, but, he’s in charge now, and he sees that the folks in the Indian Home Guard have made an error, and he says get back. What do the Confederates think?
Lynn: So those are the Confederates on the Confederate side, in particular the 29th Texas mistake this order of fallback as an order of retreat. Remember, they were ordered to fall back, not retreat, but to fall back. And so the Texas forces are ordered to attack who they think are retreating troops, and they think they’re about to win the day. And remember the smoke in the air and everything. Those are the First Kansas, you know, they couldn’t see them, and they run straight in the middle of the lines of the First Kansas, where they fired volley after volley into those Texas units.
Thompson: Yeah. This was the 29th Texas Regiment, and the First Kansas didn’t hesitate to take advantage of the blunder that had been made.
Lynn: Not at all. And they, as a matter of fact, they shot down three color bearers in succession. And this started the beginning of the end, for the Confederate forces in this conflict, where it broke the middle of the lines.
Thompson: And now, the Confederates have the creek behind them, so retreating is going to be really difficult.
Lynn: And then you see the bridge, the toll bridge that was there would have been crossed and two fords on the east and the west. But thousands of troops, be it from the Confederate forces, of Confederate side or the Union side would have crossed this wooden toll bridge, and they were able to get the— they being the Confederate forces— were able to get their three remaining artillery pieces past this bridge, which is kind of amazing considering all that was that was happening. And they, you know, they fiercely defend the bridge as best as they could, and a lot of hand-to-hand combat takes place. And in this area, in this time of the battle, and, you know, they’re literally using the butts of their guns as clubs. It’s pretty, you know, tragic what happened there north and south of Elk Creek.
Thompson: I have to say that at that site, and I’ve walked those trails now. And in fact, I walked them last spring when I had a chance to come to the site for a little bit. And I walked over to that bridge. And if you walk over there today, you’ll see some remaining stones from a bridge that was built later. But it was hard for me, in my mind, to wrap my mind. It was a peaceful, serene day. The trees are blooming. It’s quiet out there. You can’t hear any road noise or anything like that. And I tried to picture in my mind’s eye what happened at that place. And the area is so serene that it’s really hard to picture the terrible and bloody fighting that happened at that choke point there at the bridge, and how many people lost their lives as they were trying to retreat, and as the Union Army is advancing.
Blackburn: Well, it is literally hallowed ground. This is where people who were fighting for something they believed in. Those Texas kids believed they were fighting for their independence, and they were fighting for each other. And then, of course, first Kansas Colored Regiment members were really fighting for their own freedom. And so they were giving their blood and their lives for something they believed in. So it’s hallowed ground, one reason we feel so fiercely we have to do something about preserving it. But at that critical moment of the battle, General Cooper had kept his Chickasaw- Choctaw Regiment in reserve. And this is, you know, they’re held in reserve. And as the Confederate troops are pulling back, he brings up his Chickasaw-Choctaw soldiers, and they dig in, and they tried to slow the Union advance to allow the Confederate Army to get away, and, which they succeeded in doing.
Thompson: Yeah. General Cooper remarks after the battle about the Choctaw soldiers. He says, “With their usual intrepidy, the Choctaws went out them, giving the war whoop, and succeeded in checking the advance of the enemy until the force could be concentrated and brought up.” So the Choctaw troops brought him time to be able to get his force out of there. And of course, one of the things that they do is destroy the supply depot.
Lynn: That’s right. That gives them time to destroy, or burn what they can of the supply depot. And this gives them time to start a retreat, mostly east. And the reason it was later found out, or later stated by Cooper, he did this to deceive Blunt into thinking he might have another conflict, so he wouldn’t follow him.
Thompson: Well, so the battle’s wrapping up. We have the tallies. The Union soldiers, 17 killed, 60 wounded. Confederate losses: 150 killed, 400 wounded, 77 captured.
Blackburn: Yeah. And really, that is the turning point of the entire Civil War in the Indian Territory. Once the Union has solid control of Fort Gibson, which is really at the head of navigation of the Arkansas, then the Union forces marched downriver, and they take Fort Smith soon thereafter. And once Fort Smith falls, along with Vicksburg, on the Mississippi falling, the Union has control of the river system of the old South, and again tightening down the strangling of the economy where they can’t export, can’t import, can’t move around, can’t add value, you know, trying to destroy the economy. And so, when Gibson is really held by them, not only are they trying to protect the Union-sympathizing Indians in the valley, but they’re controlling that strategic junction of it. And after that, there is no additional large-scale battles.
We think there are more than 80 battles fought, or skirmishes at least, fought in the Indian Territory during the war. And after that, there would be many more engagements. Stand Watie and his cavalry units would actually capture a riverboat on the Arkansas River, and they would ground it, drive off the Union forces protecting it, and Stand Watie lost his forces overnight because they all went down and got the supplies and all headed home to feed their families. So the J. R. Williams was a major victory for the South at the time. And then more battles at Cabin Creek, because the Union had to keep supplying Fort Gibson, trying to get those supplies from Fort Scott, and Stand Watie would eventually capture one of those wagon trains before the end of the war and then burn the wagons.
We know exactly where that happened, because our archaeologists have found remnants of those wagons up there. But never again, and there are some assaults on haying crews around Fort Gibson. There are some small skirmishes. At one time in 1864, a Union, in fact, was I think it was Captain Phelps by this time who spread Emancipation Proclamation leaflets though, went all the way down into the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, trying to get the slaves to run away, and but really no large engagements thereafter.
Thompson: And Stand Watie was the last to surrender, correct?
Blackburn: June of 1865. He had been promoted to brigadier general, the highest rank of a non, you know, military-trained professional. So he had brigadier general, a commander there in the Indian Territory. And in June, he really, you know, the war had ended in April largely, but in June, he rode into Fort Towson, which was an old federal fort, had been kind of reestablished by this time, and surrenders his sword. And it’s called the last surrender, because that would have been the last of the Confederate generals who gave up.
But even for them, it wasn’t over. A lot of the Confederate Cherokees would not return to the Cherokee Nation for two years because they did not trust the pro-Union Cherokees who now were negotiating with the federal government on the Reconstruction treaties, had control of their own court systems, their lawmen, the government, those Confederate Cherokees who were now, at this time, including parts of my own family, were down in north Texas around the Sherman-Denison area where the Confederates had been supporting them, and Stand Watie eventually, would say, okay, we can come back. He was really lobbying to separate the Cherokee Nation into the pro-Union, pro-Confederate. Union wasn’t going to do that. And so United States government imposed on all five tribes what we call the Reconstruction Treaties of 1866. And in those treaties—and I call this the major turning point in all of Oklahoma history—it set up the process of allotment of tribal lands to individuals, it set up allowing the first railroads in. It set up the state-making process. It did so much to change what was happening. And thereafter, the Five Tribes were fighting for their sovereignty, and their independence, and then statehood. By that point, there would be no more Indian nations in terms of communal ownership of land.
Thompson: And friends, stay tuned, because someday soon we’re going to do a podcast episode just on the Reconstruction Treaties. So we’ll let you look forward to that. Adam, I’d really like you to just put this battle in context. I think that a lot of people, when they think of a Civil War battle in Oklahoma, they might assume that there were Native Americans fighting in the battle, but they probably don’t know that they were fighting on both sides. They probably don’t assume that you have the first major action by a Black regiment fighting in this. There’s so many things that are unique and fascinating about this battle. And in fact, General Blunt says about the First Kansas, “They fought like veterans and preserved their line unbroken throughout the engagement. Their coolness and bravery I have never seen surpassed.” So wrap this up into a bow for us, Adam. Why are we still talking about this battle today? What is it that resonates still about?
Lynn: Well, it is like we talked about earlier. It is thought to be, if not the, one of the most culturally diverse conflicts to ever take place in the entire Civil War. And there were 10, or approximately 10 different American Indian tribal nations that fought at the Battle of Honey Springs. And, of course, the First Kansas Volunteer Infantry Regiment that fought here, the very first African American regiment to ever fight in the entire Civil War. This was their fourth conflict, and they were largely responsible for Union victory. They held their lines, and as you said, those of the Native American tribes that fought for, those fought against one another. There were three Union Indian Home Guards. And of course, you had the Indian Brigade with most of all the Five Tribes fighting, and they were literally fighting against their own brothers, as Dr. Blackburn alluded to, and some on their own homelands, Muscogee (Creek) Nation. I could not imagine those feelings, what was going on. You know, they were fighting to take back their lands. And then, of course, you know, those are the First Kansas were fighting for more than, they were fighting for their lives and their futures.
Blackburn: And Trait, to add to the significance of the battle. About 12 years ago, we were working with the National Park Service on several projects in the state, and we actually paid for a study that the Park Service wanted to do to see should it be a unit of the National Park Service or not. And they had a scholar look into it. It went all the way, all the way up to the head of the National Park Service at the time. Roger Kennedy was his name. He and I became friends. His wife, Frances, helped me raise money for several sites in Oklahoma, but went all the way to the very top. And the National Park Service, the arbiters of what’s historic in American history, said Honey Springs is so important in our history, it should be a unit of the Park Service.
It hasn’t happened yet. It’s going to require congressional action. But I truly believe that at some point, we will have the delegation in Congress from Oklahoma to make that happen. And when our delegation says it’s time to honor this battle and what it means to us, the Park Service will welcome that and do what they can to help make sure everyone understands the lessons that can be learned from this one engagement fought in the American heartland.
Thompson: Well, this has just been a thrilling conversation, and I’ve enjoyed it so much. And it’s crazy how fast the time goes when you’re talking about something that’s as interesting as the Battle of Honey Springs. But Adam, I’m sure there are people that, now that they’ve heard this, they want to learn more about this battle, and they’ll want to come visit you. There are some opportunities coming up where people can learn more about this. And the first one is Inasmuch Foundation has funded a documentary on this battle, and they’re going to be some screenings of it pretty quickly. Why don’t you tell folks a little bit about that?
Lynn: Yes. The folks at the Rodeo Cinema in Oklahoma City and the Circle Cinema in Tulsa have graciously offered to show the new Battle of Honey Springs film. It’s going to show, like I said, in Oklahoma City at the Rodeo Cinema on October 24, and that’ll be at 2 p.m., which will be a Sunday. And then the Circle Cinema on October 31 at 2 p.m., which is another Sunday. And we’re going to also promote the upcoming reenactment, which is the first weekend in November. It’ll be November 5, 6, and 7, with the fifth being the friday Education Day. And so we encourage everybody to come out.
Thompson: Now, where can people find out—by the way, the screenings of the movie are free. All you need to do is show up. You don’t have to get tickets. Just come out to the screenings of the movie. As Adam mentioned, first weekend in November is the reenactment, and the reenactment only takes place every two years.
Lynn: Every other year. So if you miss it this year, you’ve got to wait until 2023 to come out and see it. But where can people find out more information about this?
Lynn: Well, you can go to our webpage, which is okhistory.org/honeysprings. And you can also learn up-to-date information through our Facebook page, Honey Springs Battlefield and Visitor Center. And that’s the two, those are the two best places to go, in my opinion, to learn more about what’s going on.
Thompson: Well, this has been such a great conversation. And Bob, I always love getting together to do our podcast. And thank you so much, Adam, for being here and being a part of this. And we encourage you to come take advantage of these events that are going on. And with that, we’ll see you at our next episode.
Blackburn: Thank you. Trait. Thank you, Adam.
Lynn: Thank you, guys.
Thompson: You’ve been listening to A Very OK Podcast, hosted by Trait Thompson and Bob Blackburn. The podcast is produced by Ryan Green. I encourage you to go out and like us and subscribe to us on whatever podcast app that you use, and please rate us. And if you liked what you heard today, please go recommend us to a friend, and we’ll see you next month for our next episode.
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