A Very OK Podcast
Episode 19: “Cultivating Cultural Tourism in Oklahoma”
October 18, 2022
Episode Transcript
(upbeat music playing)
Trait Thompson: Hello, and welcome to A Very OK Podcast. My name is Trait Thompson. I’m the executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society. With me, as always, is Dr. Bob Blackburn. Bob, how are you doing? You just came in from the golf course. How’d you shoot today?
Dr. Bob Blackburn: Well, I’m not going to say (laughing) because it was not one of my best days. But can talk about beautiful weather. I played at Twin Hills, and I’m writing their centennial history that’ll come out in March. And so I love the history of the place, the beauty of the place. Perry Maxwell design. And so, golf, it doesn’t really matter how you play. Just being out there.
Thompson: Yeah, yeah, I used to play, and fairly frequently. I took up golf when I was in college at ORU and started playing at South Lakes there in Tulsa. And I love South Lakes because it’s one of the most forgiving courses that you could have, and I could regularly shoot pretty well there. But since having kids, my golf game has kind of gone downhill. In fact, I don’t think I’ve swung a club in the last three or four years. And I need to get back out there again. But I want to bring in our special guest for today. And with us is the lieutenant governor of the state of Oklahoma, a good guy, and my friend, Matt Pinnell.
Matt Pinnell: Thanks for having me, guys. I love listening to your podcast. So to be a guest is a, it’s an honor, truly. I’m not just saying that as a politician.
Thompson: Well, we are thrilled to have you here. And, Matt, you know, you and I have known each other for quite a few years. I wanted to tell everybody on our podcast that there was a time that I held higher political office than you, and it was the only one time, and that was in 1999 to 2000, I was the student body president at ORU when we were both students there. So, but since then, Matt has far eclipsed my accomplishments in the political arena. And, Matt, why don’t you talk to him a little bit about your history and how you got to be lieutenant governor?
Pinnell: Sure. Yeah. You know, be careful what you ask for. First off, being in elected office, but, yeah, I mean, gosh, Trait, I think we’ve known each other for 15 years or so. Grew up in the Tulsa area. My wife and I, we have four kiddos in the Tulsa area. We run a small business, due in large part to my wife. She’s an inventor and an entrepreneur, and I got involved in politics when I was in college. High school and college, was real involved with student council. College got involved with kind of the intercollegiate legislature, OIL around in the state.
Thompson: OIL was big at ORU.
Pinnell: It was big at ORU. I ended up getting a minor in government at ORU just because I was getting really interested in politics and was an advertising major, PR-advertising major. So I’ve over the years, I’ve been able to combine, you know, public relations advertising with politics. They really do go together. Started working on some campaigns after college, went out to DC for a few years. My wife and I, at that point we were married. And so, you know, one campaign kind of led to another, is the way that I describe it. I could have always gone back into the private sector. If I wasn’t doing what I’m doing today, I’d be working for an advertising agency somewhere, probably, is what I would tell you.
But I’ve always loved politics. I’ve always loved working for good men and women that just want to help change their city or change their state or change, yes, the country. And I kind of have it in the bloodstream now, just really love politics. And I truly do feel very blessed. I really mean that. I know it’s easy for me to say, but I do feel very blessed to be sitting as a lieutenant governor in the state, and to have some authority over some things that I actually am passionate about. I didn’t run for lieutenant governor just to run for office. If I would have done that, I would have, you know, could run for anything. I ran for lieutenant governor because it fit me, my background, and thought I was pretty tailor-made for it. And over the last four years have really, really enjoyed working with agencies around the state, the Historical Society being one of them, Arts Council, and others that, you know, want to promote the positive things in a state, and our state being Oklahoma, and the economic impact that the arts and history, and I know that’s what we’re going to be talking about today, have on a state. You know, tourism is one of the best tools in our toolbox to recruit people to a state.
And Oklahoma, for sure, I mean, Bob talks, you know, Bob and I’ve talked about, I mean, no state really can match the heritage in the history of the state of Oklahoma, if you think about it. I mean how we started and where we are today, where we’re going. It’s pretty magical. I use the word magical, and we need to tell that whole story, by the way, because when we do, a whole lot more people show up in our state, and that’s one of the many things that makes my job very exciting.
Thompson: Well, we’ll get into that in a minute. But, Bob, you know, we’re so fortunate here to have, not only is he lieutenant governor, but he is the cabinet secretary that OHS reports up through. And it’s great to have someone that’s so passionate about Oklahoma in office right now.
Blackburn: Well, in fact, I was going to make a correction on one thing. You said, you started off by saying you’re a politician. I would prefer to say you’re a public servant.
Pinnell: Thank you.
Blackburn: And that is not just because I prefer that comment, being a public servant. Yeah, but you really have brought that passion and the integrity and the enthusiasm to your job. And all of us are serving the public. Government is “We the people.” It’s all of us citizens saying we will delegate certain authority to our elected officials and appointed officials and civil servants like us, Trait and I, but we’re all public servants. And when you decided to run, you really ran for the right reasons. I can make a difference. I want to improve the quality of life. And I’ve witnessed that and worked with you and want to compliment you on being a public servant.
Pinnell: Thank you.
Thompson: Well, and I have to say to, you know, knowing Matt as long as I have and then, you know, knowing a bit about Oklahoma history, I think, Bob, see if you agree with this. I think Matt is the closest to George Nigh that that we’ve had in quite a while, just wanting to, you know, we had Governor Nigh as a guest on this podcast a few months ago. But, you know, he talked about the importance of Oklahoma!, and he talked about that exclamation mark at the end. It’s not Oklahoma, it’s Oklahoma! And I think that you were following in that George Nigh legacy.
Pinnell: Well, that’s very kind of you to say, and I do talk about it. I really ran on George Nigh’s platform when I was running for office, and we’ve had a lot of dinners over the last four years as well. I mean, he just, what a, what a legend. And I mean, one of the greatest of all time.
Thompson: Absolutely. Sure.
Pinnell: And he has given me a lot of advice, but, yeah, I ran on George’s platform in a lot of ways, and have been able to implement some of the things that he told me to implement four years ago.
Blackburn: Well, in fact, one of his favorite phrases now, and I see George quite a bit. I’m one of his drivers. He doesn’t drive anymore, but I go out and pick him up, and he likes to use the phrase, yes, you can do it from here. That we should be proud of Oklahoma, that we don’t have to play second to anyone. We may be ranked only above Mississippi in some category, but we shouldn’t let that hold us back. Still should be ambitious. We should have the confidence to say, yes, we can be an astronaut. Yes, we can be a business leader. And people have proven that that’s true. And George truly believes that, and he’s a real evangelist for that, and you have followed in those footsteps.
Thompson: Well, Matt, one of the things that we love to do here is we love to talk about our favorite movies and pop culture. And I thought today we could talk a little bit about some of our favorite movies that have to do with history. And usually it’s kind of we talk about whatever is the main thing we’re talking about that day. But today I thought we’d open it up a little bit. And do you have any favorite historical movies or television shows?
Pinnell: Sure, sure. You know, one of my favorite movies, he was my favorite actor, Daniel Day-Lewis. Lincoln is hard to beat.
Thompson: Oh, man, it’s a good one.
Pinnell: It is so good. I mean, you really, you really believe you’re looking at Abraham Lincoln. I mean, Daniel Day-Lewis just turned into Abraham Lincoln. That’s really towards the top of my list. I’m looking at a poster of The Outsiders here. I guess that’s fairly historical.
Pinnell: Historical fiction. Historical fiction. But you’ll count it. You’ll count it. And I hope that a year from now, my favorite historical movie, wins a bunch of Oscars, and that is Killers of the Flower Moon.
Thompson: That’s right.
Pinnell: I feel pretty good that that movie is going to be spectacular. Those of y’all that are listening right now know that that movie was, it just wrapped. It’s in post-production. Was filmed in Pawhuska in Osage County. Now, the story’s tough. I mean, it’s a tough story, but it’s a story that needs to be told. If you haven’t read Killers of the Flower Moon, the movie, the book. Excuse me, read the book. It was a book. First, thankfully, a New York Times bestseller turned into movies. Martin Scorsese, the director; Leonardo DiCaprio, Robert De Niro. I firmly believe it’s going to be a hit. And it needs to be.
Thompson: It’s a whole list of B-movie actors. That’s right.
Pinnell: Spent, you know, gosh, $150 million in our state. It’s a $200 million production. It will premiere at the Cannes Film Festival next May. And so, those listening right now, be on the lookout for that movie.
Thompson: That’ll be great. That’ll be great. Bob, how about you? Any favorite historical movies?
Blackburn: Well, when you asked me that, you know, in your text, I was thinking pop culture. And of course, when I think of pop culture, how someone can use a great piece of literature or a great story and combine it all in some creative way, and on a non-Oklahoma topic, Shakespeare in Love. Yeah, because I was such a Shakespeare fan like David Holt’s dad. Stroud Holt, who was my English teacher in high school, Putnam City, and that’s where I learned Shakespeare. And I’ve been a Shakespeare fanatic in my life. But those people who wrote or made that movie in 1998 took not only Shakespeare’s words and Shakespeare’s themes, but they used Shakespeare’s ideas throughout all of his literature to form that movie. And every time I see it, I see another part of a play or something. So Gwyneth Paltrow and Joseph Fiennes, it’s just fabulous movie. I watch it over and over.
In terms of an Oklahoma theme, it may not be the greatest movie of all time, but it’s one that I still enjoy, and that’s just Oklahoma! Yeah, made in 1955. But and of course, based on Green Grow the Lilacs, which was penned by an Oklahoman, Lynn Riggs from Claremore, Cherokee kid. And then his play goes on stage, and Rodgers and Hammerstein discover it, add sounds, music to his words. Then it hits, and it’s one of the most probably impactful stage plays ever, in changing Broadway. And then when the movie is made, it’s just so optimistic, and it makes you feel good to sit there and listen to those songs and those people and the optimism and struggle. It’s just a great movie,
Thompson: And my kids love it when I walk through the house singing “Surrey with the Fringe on the Top,” you know, and I think people need to know that you’ve been a consultant on some movies, and you were consulted on a movie that had at least part of it take place in Oklahoma, which is Far and Away, correct?
Blackburn: Yeah, that’s right. I was editor of The Chronicles before I became director, and I was always getting manuscripts, and I got a manuscript called “The Irish Story.” So I put it on the stack with everything else. About two weeks later, I get a call. Is this Dr. Blackburn? Yes. She said, Mr. Howard’s wondering if you’ve looked at this script. And I said what? She said, yes. “The Irish Story,” Mr. Howard. I said, Ron Howard. She said, yeah, Ron Howard. So I said, I got it, you will get something tomorrow. And they wanted me to critique the last third, which is all set in Oklahoma with the Land Run of 1893, because Ron Howard’s great-grandfathers both made the Land Run of 1893. Rance, Ron’s dad, grew up in Kay County on those farms and heard those stories. Well, Ron basically did an autobiographical family story. And that came out. Most recently, in fact, I just heard back. I was a consultant this summer on a new television series on Bass Reeves.
Thompson: Yeah, I knew that you were doing that, but I didn’t know if we could talk about it yet.
Blackburn: Can we talk about it? Sure. Yeah. Is it public knowledge? I shouldn’t as well.
Thompson: It’s out there. I’ve read articles about it.
Pinnell: No, it’s out there.
Blackburn: Yeah, well, because I had to sign a nondisclosure when they hired me last November, but I finished. I worked with seven scriptwriters on different stories of Bass Reeves, who was an African American, US deputy marshal in the Indian Territory, and a fascinating man in history. There’s a good book about him. But they asked me to be the consult because I did my dissertation on the history of law enforcement in Oklahoma, and I’ve done Indian law enforcement. So, I would work with one screenwriter on one particular plot, Will David, and I’m going to, I’m going to mispronounce his name, David Oyelowo, But anyway, he was in Lincoln.
Pinnell: Yes. The lead actor in this. Yes.
Thompson: And I believe he’s played Martin Luther King Jr. in Selma.
Blackburn: And I just heard from him. So he and I will be doing some Zooms, so I’m trying to explain what Bass Reeves really confronted, going from a very ordered, urban, repetitive law-and-order community where he lived with one leg and then stepping into this land that did not have a sense of order, and people were more self-reliant. And you had to be tough enough with your fists, and your guns, and your wits, and Bass could move back and forth. And as an African American, at a time when the South was going right back into a different form of slavery, and Oklahoma was a land of multiculturalism. I’m having a lot of fun with that project. So hopefully we’ll see that on TV next fall.
Thompson: Well, and let him know that there’s a great podcast that he should be on.
Pinnell: Yes, he should.
Thompson: If he’s coming to Oklahoma. So. Very good. Well, that’s going to be exciting, Bob. And that’s coming from the brilliant mind of Taylor Sheridan and tha whole universe there, which I think almost every show on TV now is a Taylor Sheridan show.
Pinnell: The Tulsa King being another one that’s going to be coming out soon with Sylvester Stallone.
Thompson: Excited about that. Well, I’ll get a couple of mine in there. And I want to talk about Band of Brothers because that’s one of my absolute favorites. So over the summer, my son is 14. He’ll be 15 in December, and over the summer, I had my son read Band of Brothers, because I wanted him to understand, you know, these values of sacrifice, and these people that that banded together from all different parts of the United States and for a common cause. And I told him, I said, we’ll watch the series together after you read the book. And so we had a great time. We also read The Outsiders together this summer, which was a lot of fun, but we had a great time doing that. And then, before school started, we watched all of the series together. And that show even, I mean, it came out 20 or something years ago, and it is still so incredible and so well done. One of my favorite lines from that entire series is when they’re getting ready to march into Bastogne. And I don’t know if you remember, Jimmy Fallon’s character that’s driving the Jeep, coming in and getting them some supplies, and he shouts out to them as they’re marching away, he says, “Hey, you’re going to be surrounded out there.” And Dick Winters looks back at him and says, “We’re paratroopers, Lieutenant. We’re supposed to be surrounded.”
(laughter)
And that’s one of my favorite lines in the whole series. And one of the reasons for that is because there is nothing better than understanding your mission really, really well, and knowing that we’re doing exactly what we’re supposed to be at the exact time we’re supposed to be doing it and having that confidence to say, hey, this isn’t any big deal for us. We jump in behind enemy lines. This is our whole deal. I don’t know. I just love that so much.
Pinnell: Greatest generation. No doubt about it.
Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. And I would have to say another one of my favorites is 13 Days with Kevin Costner, that movie about the Cuban Missile Crisis. I don’t think that someone of my generation, at least, you know, Bob, you might kind of speak into that, but I don’t know that we really appreciate just how dire those times were and just how close we probably got to world annihilation back then.
Blackburn: Well, too, being in 1962, I just turned 11 years old when that happened. But at that time, television was different than what you have now. You have multiple channels streaming and all. Well, there were three channels, and Walter Cronkite was the guy, and everyone was in front of their TVs. We all felt like we were part of that because Walter Cronkite and his integrity and journalistic ability, he made us part of that, explaining that. But then I also remember everyone really believing, let’s go to the grocery store and start stocking up on food. Let’s prepare for the end. And I remember thinking as a kid, and popular culture reinforced that. A lot of movies about the annihilation, you’re the last person on earth or, you know, what was that land of the apes or whatever they were, whatever that was, you know, all these movies were coming out that the world is coming to an end.
And I remember thinking, well, I’m not going to need Social Security because I’m not going to be around. I really had those thoughts. That’s part of that generation that was a bit carefree in the late ’60s. The “Summer of Love” in ’68. Part of that was our experience of growing up and having this sense that, wait a minute, we’ve lost control, and we’re on the road to destruction, as, you know, a popular song said at that time.
Thompson: Well, it’s always great to talk about movies, but I also want to talk about, you know, some of our historic sites in the state. And, Matt, you know, we’ll get into in a minute talking about the uniqueness of our of our history here in Oklahoma. But do you have any sites that really particularly strike you, that you like to visit that, that and they don’t have to be necessarily just OHS sites, although we’re partial to those. But anything that you like when it comes to visiting our history here in Oklahoma?
Pinnell: Yeah. You know, those that have followed me over the last four years as, yes, lieutenant governor, but also, yes, secretary of tourism, knows that I’m a Route 66 enthusiast and love the Americana experience that you can get along that road. So, I’ve covered those 400 miles a lot and have spent a lot of time at our museums. And yes, a couple of those, you help run, certainly in Clinton.
Thompson: Yes, the Route 66 Museum in Clinton.
Pinnell: Which everybody should have to attend. Love it there. But, you know, we have more than than any other state, as far as from from the 400 miles that we have. And so I’ve spent a lot of time over the last few years identifying the needs of those and certainly Trait and I, Bob, even before Trait, specifically in Clinton. And so some of my favorites have to be the Route 66 stops, the historical sites. I can tell you one of the newer ones that I’ve visited, but it gives you a great understanding. Think about it. I’ve been secretary of tourism for four years. I’m still discovering historic sites around the state that are absolute gems, one of them being in Fairfax, Oklahoma, that I just went to. It is kind of where some of the Killers of the Flower Moon tourists, it’s one of their first stops. It is the Tall Chief Theater right there. And I know, Bob and Trait, I know, I know, you know, you all know it well, but what a gem this place is. The famous ballerinas, the father of the two famous ballerinas built one of the only, I think Native American-built theaters in the country. Has a historic sign still in the front. Has kind of an artwork, wood artwork of a ballerina in front. But the Tall Chief Theater, it had some tornado damage, from about a year ago. So right now we’re trying to replace the roof on it, but with Killers of the Flower Moon coming out, being right there in Fairfax, the history there of those Osage murders and and that whole story, there’s some big plans for Fairfax, and the Friends of Fairfax group that brought me in to see it, and and I’m sitting in the middle of this theater and envisioning having some movie set props in there and redeveloping this, you know, revitalizing it. And I’m thinking, you know, how many more sites are like this, historic theaters or Native American sites, just alone, that we could help infuse some love into.
The other that I have to mention is that, and Bob knows what I’m probably about to say, the Capital Publishing Museum building right there in Guthrie. You were surrounded by history in Guthrie. But I would love to do more with the Capital Publishing building. I was trying to get to the Newseum in DC when it shut down. I was trying to get one of the traveling exhibits over, but the printing presses that are in the basement alone of of that, that are still there. You can, you walk through the history that’s there. I was very wowed by that a few years ago. And there’s another great group there in Guthrie that’s trying to raise money too.
Thompson: Yeah, Lynn Bilodeau is doing such a good job. And if Lynn’s listening, shout out to Lynn today. Bob and I are going to be there later this month for his fundraiser that he’s having.
Pinnell: Good! Oh, I’m glad you all are involved in that. That’s good.
Thompson: So, yeah, Lynn, he’s so passionate about it. And you’re exactly right. It is, you know, for state history, certainly. It’s almost ground zero because they announced the statehood proclamation from the balcony of that building. It’s an incredibly beautiful asset. We’re cheering hard for Lynn to be able to do the things that he needs to do, and those great folks in Guthrie to be able to save that building.
Pinnell: Yeah. I can’t thank you all enough for even buildings and historical sites that you do not help run. You all are still very involved with local communities that have kind of taken that baton. And so, yeah, the Capital Publishing building certainly is one of those that we just have to preserve. I mean, we have to. I don’t care how we do it. It’s going to be a team effort for sure. But going into a second term, those are the type of projects, those passion projects, that I’m hoping to get even more involved in.
Thompson: Sure, sure. Absolutely. Bob, any favorite historic sites?
Blackburn: Well, I’m going to riff off of the lieutenant governor’s comments and start with my favorite movie theaters, because when I go into a town, I like looking for those old movie theaters because, you know, I was around in the ’50s and ’60s when the little movie theater in Edmond, where I grew up there, the Old Bronco, it would change movie three times in a week. And you get the little cardboard piece that show what movies, and I’d have my 15 cents. So movies have always been important, but to me, the most fabulous movie theater in the state is a Coleman in Miami. And again, a public-private partnership. The city contributes to it. The college there contributes to it. There’s a great group of volunteers. I’ve worked with them. They’ve had several direct appropriations over the years, and I’ve worked with them on part of it. Went to the opening ceremonies there when they had the Kilgen organ, not the Kilgen.
Thompson: That’s here at the History Center.
Blackburn: What’s the other big brand? It’ll come to me as I’m talking about it, but they have a big theater organ, and I went there for that opening ceremony. But, to me, that’s a fabulous place. It represents the story of mining in that part of the state. It’s Route 66. It’s right on Route 66. And it probably is part of the community and always will be because they found a way to get the school, the community, nonprofit groups, to use the place. So it’s adaptive reuse, and that’s important in historic preservation. In terms of my favorite one spot where I’m standing in the middle of a built environment.
Now, there’s some natural environments we can talk about. Again, Wichita Mountains would have to be put on my list, but in terms of built environment, I like going to historic Fort Sill. Standing in the middle of that quadrangle, and partly because it’s, we’ve protected it through historic preservation over the years. You can stand in the middle of that quadrangle and look at those old buildings that are wooden, and you don’t have a sense of an outside world. It’s a magical place. And I’ve spent so many afternoons there for the last 50, literally 50 years. I started working with some of the people at Fort Sill, and I like that spot. Now it’s a little less accessible now because you have to have a military ID to get on base, but if you can get there, it’s worth the effort.
And then in terms of just a landscape where history is embedded in the history of the place, I’ve got to say Honey Springs Battlefield. And of course, I admit that, you know, I’m part of that. I was sent to that site in 1979 to talk to the landowners about what we might do. There was nothing but rolling pasture at the time, and so I’ve been part of every step of the way. I was in charge of the first reenactment in ’88, worked with the people in Checotah, too. Some of those families over there. Nichols Grocery, Sharpe Department Stores. You know, the Stidham family, of course, goes on and on. What those people have invested in, we could not have done that one alone. But we preserve 1,200 acres. We’ve done archaeology on the site, working with the National Park Service. We built a museum without a state appropriation. We just completed an award-winning film that is still winning awards around the country.
Thompson: It’s fantastic.
Blackburn: And we do that with that state appropriation. We found a way to make it happen. And so, Honey Springs is that important spot where our history comes to one day, at one place, and it changes the course of history. And that’s July 17, 1863, on that battlefield. It’s hallowed ground, and it’s where two different cultures clashed. And the results of that, I can start at that point and follow almost every thread of Oklahoma history into the 21st century. It’s one of those sites. It’s just important to us.
Thompson: Well, and I have to say, since you mentioned Honey Springs, we have an incredible new exhibit there that is going to be unveiled, and I’m just so excited about it. So for those of you who are listening, November 5, and you can find more information on our website, okhistory.org. But we are going to be unveiling this new exhibit. It’s going to be incredible. It’s a multimedia experience. It’s going to kind of put you in the feel of being right in the middle of that battle, and we’re using that footage from that documentary to tell the story in a unique way, and I can’t wait for folks to see it. It’s going to be incredible. And as long as we’re talking about historic theaters, I have to throw mine in there, and I’m going to throw the Poncan in Ponca City. In my mind, one of the most beautiful theaters I’ve ever seen, and just such a unique decor in there. And I remember a couple of years ago, this was even before I had this job, I was touring around Ponca City, and we just stopped by, and it wasn’t even open. But somebody opened it for us and let us go look around, and it was incredible. So I love that theater.
Blackburn: Well and Ponca City is probably the greatest, after the State Capitol, probably the greatest interior space is the Marland Mansion. And it is a hidden gem. In fact, I was playing golf today, and the fellow was riding with said he just went to some home on the in South Carolina, and he said the Marland Mansion is ten times better, and they charge you like $70 to get in to the one in South Carolina. And here it’s reasonable, and it is maintained by the city. So I’ve always admired the people of Ponca City for the sense of community, saying this is too important to let this go. We have got to maintain it. And that’s great interior space, along with the Capitol and probably the Masonic Temple in Guthrie. Those are the three greatest interior spaces in this state.
Pinnell: I agree, I agree.
Thompson: No argument here. Well, you know, Bob, we’re talking about you know, the lieutenant governor has had such an emphasis on tourism, and it’s one of the biggest economic drivers in our state. And when we start talking about developing our cultural tourism, I thought it might be good for folks to understand a little bit about the history of the Oklahoma Historical Society, because we started out in 1893. We were really a collecting agency to start out with—newspapers and books, and things of that nature. And over time, we start acquiring some of these historic sites. So, I thought you could maybe take a few minutes and run us through this history of where we get to where we are today, where now we have 26 museums and sites across the state and leaning into that tourism part, of course, our job is to collect, preserve, and share that history. But tourism plays a big part in that. So would you mind kind of taking us a walk down memory lane?
Blackburn: Sure. Really, we launch into that world of tourism in 1930 when the old historical building was constructed. It was funded by the State. Sold some land in the Cherokee Outlet for $500,000, built that building at the time, opened in 1930. Well, that became a museum. And from that point on, people could visit and see the collections. And there were some exhibits, and it was largely an art gallery at that time. What’s now the Oklahoma Hall of Fame was part of the Oklahoma Historical Society and was until 1971, when it split off. So there were portrait galleries. There were collections like Charlie Colcord, famous Oklahoman. He donated all of his collections to us at the time. Well, the Colcord collections were there. The David Payne collections. We had a bison Indian hide teepee. We had other objects that were being brought to Oklahoma by our Indian neighbors because they came from all over the country, 39 tribes. Well, they brought their stuff with them, and then a lot of that ended up in the Oklahoma Historical Society’s collection. So you could go see that bison hide. You could see things, but largely it was just kind of abstract. Well, here’s a collection. This is what it is, not much of a story.
Well, that starts changing in the 1930s. That’s when our state park system begins. Federal grants coming out in the New Deal under E. W. Marland, so another connection to Ponca. He was elected in ’34, takes office ’35 says, I welcome the New Deal. Let’s bring the money in. So they create those first seven or eight parks. Lieutenant governor, you probably know the exact number, but we create those first parks that will be part of tourism because now by the ’30s, people are traveling in automobiles. Before that, people traveled by rail. So you went city to city. Suddenly, the countryside is open. That changes the nature of national parks. It changes the nature of where people can go. So with the automobile, you’re freed up from the tracks. And so the state recognizes, the federal government recognizes, the CCC boys come in, employing these kids. The army is in charge of that, making a difference in our landscape. Well, coming through the 1940s, we’re actually losing more people in the 1940s in Oklahoma than we did in the 1930s.
Thompson: That’s surprising.
Blackburn: That is. And most people, so when they think, well, Grapes of Wrath created that image that everyone’s leaving in the ’30s, but the ’40s, we lost more because of industrialization, and farmers couldn’t make it on 160 acres and a mule and a bunch of kids to pick and chop your cotton. So they’re all leaving the farm. And so what are you going to do about rural economic development? And so by the time you get to the 1950s, you have governors like Raymond Gary saying, we need to do more for rural economic development. Yeah, Oklahoma City and Tulsa, they were even growing in the Great Depression. So both cities were growing. Market communities like Woodward and Enid, and Ardmore were doing okay. But what’s changing of those little towns in rural Oklahoma? So how can we help? Well, the legislature, which is still predominantly rural until 1966. That’s reapportionment of the Senate.
Well, until then, every county had a senator. Oklahoma County had one senator; Cimarron County had one senator. And so the tendency is, let’s take the stuff home to our constituents. So how can we get it out of Oklahoma City, the state capital? Well, heritage tourism became part of that movement both at the tourism department that was then part of economic development. It wasn’t a tourism department till George Nigh convinced Dewey Bartlett and the legislature to change that. But it also changed the Historical Society because starting in the 1950s, we start getting our first sites added, and that really had started in the ’30s. Sequoyah homesite was one of our oldest sites that we acquired in the ’30s.
Thompson: Yeah, we had a few buildings at Fort Gibson, too, but not much.
Blackburn: It was just kind of scattered. But starting with historic preservation coming out of the 1950s and urban renewal with our legislature, they started working with local communities who started realizing that their culture was slipping away. So, as grandparents see their grandkids going off to Oklahoma City or St. Louis or Dallas or LA, they’re thinking, wait a minute, what about the strength of our culture and our grandparents who made the land runs and built these communities? And they want to preserve it, so you get kind of a grassroots effort at local museums. And what happens in the political process of the legislature, what can I take home to mark my constituents? Is that you might have a senator from Garfield County who hears from his constituents at a town hall meeting. Well, what do you want me to do? We need to help with our museum. We started it. We found out we can’t run it. We don’t have enough money to pay the utilities. We don’t have staff. Okay, well, I’ll pass a bill. Well, in the 1950s and ’60s, one bill did not have to be approved by any state. If he got to the legislature, that was state law.
It became property of what became tourism or the Oklahoma Historical Society, and that avalanche started during the Civil War bicentennial [sic] from 1961 to 1965. That’s when we got first property at Honey Springs. We got Fort Washita with the help of the Merrick Foundation, Kirkpatrick Foundation helped us get Fort Towson, and we started adding sites. And so, they hired their first director at the Historical Society, Earl Metcalf, to be in charge of these sites when they were really locally motivated, locally run. And we just had to keep the senator happy with the way it would have been in the 1960s. An acceptable mediocrity is the way I describe those years. Same thing was happening to tourism during, and just to use one example, during Raymond Gary’s administration, the people in Clinton wanted their little museum because the senator said, well, that senator over there got his museum. I want one too. Well, they get a little museum called Western Trails Museum in Clinton, and tourism had it from the late ’50s.
And then in 1990, I was part of the negotiation with tourism to transfer that and nine other properties to the Historical Society. Well, I had to go in and evaluate them. It had three staff members, no collections, no story. Basically, the state was not getting a good return on investment, and I had to be the bad guy. I had one legislator get in my face. I’m going to get you fired. Sorry. This is a waste of taxpayer money. And yeah, maybe fired, but this was the right thing. But what happened there is that when we closed it in ’92, Congress that very year passed a program called the Enhancement Program and taking part of our ODOT distribution saying you cannot use that for pavement. It has to be for enhancement of the traveling experience. Four categories out of 12 for history. That’s the beginning of the Route 66 Museum.
We took the site, tripled the size of the building, hired a great architect, Rand Elliott, hired a historian, a writer who had just written a book called The Mother Road, Michael Wallace, to be our consultant. I jumped in there. The local community raised $400,000. We had some federal money, a little bit of state money, and with the support of the community, Senator Kerr at that time, Rep. Widener, I still remember these guys because they were some of the few who said, yeah, we can do better. And then since 1995, that Route 66 Museum has been outperforming almost any museum on Route 66, over $400,000 a year gross. But all of this was changing in the ’40s and ’50s until you see this real explosion of the state getting involved in heritage tourism in the ’60s, and then George Nigh gets more involved with how can we promote it? So that starts really more promotion.
And at that time, a lot of the people involved in promotion, and I always like to use the example of Ray Ackerman, who had an advertising agency in Oklahoma City. He combined with a firm out of Tulsa, and they create Ackerman McQueen. Angus McQueen is a genius himself, but they really get involved. Well, I went to a meeting during the Bellmon administration when I was on a committee on self-image and external image. What can we do? Sounds like something you’ve been doing, but Governor Bellmon says do it.
Well, I was in a meeting with Ray, and Ray said our only image should be water. Water. I’ll never forget it: water, water, water. And so promote the lakes. If you look back at tourism promotion in the 1960s, it’s all about water skiing. Pretty girls, of course, and the brochures. And it’s about the lakes that are all being built in Oklahoma. And, so that’s there. And then a little bit of heritage tourism. Historic preservation starts in the ’60s. These communities still keep getting involved. And you know, what it really took was saying we can do better. And it eventually turned out we couldn’t take care of everything the state was asked to take care of because we didn’t have the resources. But what I found, the formula that worked for me, at least as a leader, Trait, you’re doing a great job of carrying on. But to find a local community that’s willing to invest, finding something that’s marketable has some potential, tells a story that needs to be told, and there’s a potential someone coming to see it, and then investing at the state in a wise way, building up infrastructure and sustainability, and then working with our partners at tourism, as I’ve done going back to the 1970s, and promoting it.
When I did the brochure on Route 66, Ackerman McQueen had the agent, had the ad contract with the state, Jeanette Elliott. And I don’t know if you got to work with Jeanette. She left a few years ago, but she was their creative director, and I never had money for a brochure, but I had the federal grant, and I cut out a little bit of that for a nice brochure, and I said, I want the best people. And I got Jeanette. And it was a two-sided brochure. One was the entire route in the state. The other side was just our museum. Well, they translated it into German. Took it to Germany two or three years in a row. Germans are still—or were before COVID— our top audience there. And it was a great partnership of here’s this important story, here’s the local community that will invest, here’s a wise investment by the state, sustainability, creating and generating revenue, support. And we can do those sorts of things, and it’s worked very well there.
Pinnell: The partnership is so key. You know, you mentioned, I mean, I’ve seen it over the last four years, trying to work with communities. The state can’t do it all. Local community can’t do it all. But if we’re playing to our strengths, I mean, you mentioned the water. That’s just such a fascinating history because I walked into a city hall a few months ago, and it still had an old poster on the wall that said Oklahoma, America’s Lake State. And it was, I mean, probably burst from that Ackerman McQueen idea because we do have more manmade lakes than most any other state. But if we don’t play to our strengths, we can go down a rabbit trail pretty, pretty quick. And that’s what I’m really trying to communicate to communities today. Communities that get it, that are promoting what they’re already good at, before we try to do something that some other states doing, are making more money, they’re getting more people to their communities.
I love to see the partnership with our tribes as well, because, you know, the new part of cultural tourism in Oklahoma is now that you have many of these sovereigns around the state with resources today that they didn’t have in the ’60s. Now you have, it’s not just the Five Civilized Tribes anymore that have resources, because some of it because of the gaming operations, but they become so diversified. And the I-35 corridor, for example, which has been dubbed Adventure Road by the Chickasaw Nation. That’s the Chickasaws doing that, not the state doing that. And so, a rising tide is kind of lifting all boats there. So, everything off I-35, it’s not just gaming operations that they’re pointing people to. You have a lot of museums that are making money because of the Chickasaw Nation is promoting this Adventure Road. We have to do more of that. A lot of it is, yes, our Native American heritage and history, and from a Chisholm Trail to Route 66 and everything in between. If it is promoted and promoted statewide, and when a team effort, I think Oklahoma can be, you know, we want to be top 10. I think we can be a top-10 tourism state. I truly believe it.
Thompson: I think, you know, one of the issues that we have is, you know, and I know Tourism is doing a great job of promoting our sites, but it’s those marketing dollars. You know, one of our biggest setbacks here at the agency is that I probably could use triple or quadruple the amount of marketing budget that I have. And it’s hard when you’re trying to keep sites taken care of, and you’re trying to do all the things that you need to do to make sure that, obviously we, you know, we’re paying our people, and we’re doing some of, you know, some of those things, but we could use, you know, we have great things to show people. But the two words that I hate the most are “hidden gem.” I don’t want to be a hidden gem. I want people to know about us. And so that’s one of our biggest challenges is marketing dollars.
Pinnell: Well, and I mean, Bob and I talked about this, and now you and I, Trait, are talking about this. I mean, those listening, you know, my directive to you would be, I mean, if you care about history, if you care about promoting tourism and promoting the state in positive ways, we need you to call your state reps and state senators and deliver that message. Because Oklahoma does not compete when it comes to marketing itself. Our promotional budget inside the Oklahoma Department of Tourism is as low as any state regionally outside of Kansas, and we have more to promote than any state around us. That includes Texas. I mean, they got a lot more miles, but, you know, mile for mile, and what we have here packed into 77 counties truly can be unmatched if we promote it. And unfortunately, way too many communities, the first thing they cut when they’re short on cash is a marketing budget. If you don’t invite people, they’re not going to show up.
Organically in Oklahoma, yes, we have a lot of people show up just because we are that authentic, from our Native American heritage to Route 66 and all the things that we’ve been talking about. But we do not compete. We are nowhere close to a marketing budget that we need to have. And don’t get me wrong, public education, roads and bridges, and health care, and all those core services that we have to provide, and those need to be priorities. They do. But if you don’t market something, if you don’t get people to show up here, then they’re going to have, unfortunately, some negative, same negative perceptions of the state, which means they’re never going to come back here, or never choose to move here, or relocate their business here. It is the front door to economic development, tourism is. And it’s cultural tourism.
Blackburn: Excuse me, governor. Oh, one other part, I was talking about rural economic development and heritage tourism. Well, same thing was happening in Oklahoma City and Tulsa, and even Enid. I’ll include Enid in this little scenario. But a good example is the Cowboy Hall of Fame. And in the Western states, all these leaders came together, said, we need one museum to celebrate this Western culture of the cowboy, and it ended up coming to Oklahoma City. And there were some strong supporters here, supporters around the country. Well, almost lost it. They built a building, but it was unfinished. And basically, they’re going to have to put cardboard on the wall, on the windows and walk away. Especially the Gaylord family and others stepped up and says, no, we can’t let that happen and came together. But this is the 1950s. And so the Cowboy, what we what I call the Cowboy Museum and Heritage Center, starts in the ’50s, and the community embraces it. Oklahoma City helped somewhat with the bond issue at the time, and we get it going.
In Tulsa, the story there’s the Gilcrease. And of course, that comes from one very philanthropic man who loved history. And that’s Thomas Gilcrease, a Muscogee (Creek) man who made a lot of money in the oil patch. But he spent almost everything on his collections that he had there on the hill, the home there, Gilcrease was his home place that was originally where he had it. Then they built a small building. Well, he dies. It’s going to go to Colorado Springs. There’s a group that wants to buy it, and it is, it’s a miniature National Archives. It’s got some of the primo artifacts in it that Thomas could buy in the 1920s and ’30s, and a group of Tulsans stepped up, including Frank Keating’s father, who had come out from Pennsylvania to Tulsa in the oil patch. And they all signed a pledge saying, we will support keeping it here. Put it to a vote of the people. The people of Tulsa voted yes, we will invest in this. Gilcrease stays. Well, you’re seeing now about the fourth generation of Gilcrease. The Cowboy is in the middle of a huge fundraising campaign. First American families is a good example of tribal cooperation with the state. A lot of people say, well, the state money was kind of misguided, but it got us to a point where that is a world-class museum.
Pinnell: And we have to, again, there’s so many stories from CEOs, people that owned businesses that visited Oklahoma. Hilti would not be in Tulsa if not for Gilcrease Museum, because the CEO at the time was James Mountain Inhofe that said, hey, come to see Gilcrease. He saw Gilcrease, saw how amazing a city Tulsa was, and ended up building Hilti there. And I have no doubt that the Cowboy has drawn in many companies, many companies’ CEOs that are making decisions on relocating. A lot of times those folks come here first for a tourism experience, and then that leads them to to have other conversations about relocating businesses here. So we have to remember that. We have to remind legislators of that as well.
Thompson: So, Matt, look out over the horizon, and, you know, you’re in the process of running for office, and should you be reelected, well, you know, the next four years, what’s on the horizon for Oklahoma in terms of tourism? I know we’ve got some parts of the state that are really exploding, you know, Broken Bow. You can’t even hardly get in there in the summertime. But, what are some, maybe some places that are just primed to explode right now?
Pinnell: Well, I mean, Bob mentioned the Wichitas. You know, Medicine Park, right on the foot, right in the foothills of the Wichita Mountains, is really onto something, kind of a Colorado mountain town vibe there. I think that’s kind of the next explosion of Airbnb homes and cabins. I would tell you too, and I’m glad I’m saying this because I’m a big fan of our state parks. We’ve invested a lot of resources thanks to the legislature. We passed a bond a few years ago to fix our state parks. Many of our state parks were in very poor condition, but our lodges at Robbers Cave and Roman Nose and Murray, and, yes, Beavers Bend have been, we’ve finally gotten some upgrades there. So, I think in the years ahead, over the next decade, you’re going to see major growth inside our state parks system.
Last year alone, over $350 million was spent by visitors, across the state of Oklahoma, from people that visited a state park. So, you know, they came in with an RV. They spent a couple days at Lake Murray, for example, and then they spent a bunch of money around the community. So over $350 million just last year alone. I think the word that I would use, though, is sustaining that growth. That’s the goal inside our Department of Tourism today. What happened during COVID when everything else was shut down, when Oklahomans couldn’t travel anywhere else, they discovered their own state again, and that was a good thing. That was one of the positives that came out of COVID, was you had a lot of Oklahomans realize that there was a lot of cool things 30 minutes outside their front door. We want to sustain that growth. We want to sustain that outdoor recreation growth that we are seeing in this country. Boat sales, RV sales are through the roof right now. That really is the goal. We have all these assets. We all know about Tulsa, Oklahoma City, but it’s promoting agritourism growth and growth at our state parks, because most of those state parks are in rural parts of the state. Over the next decade, that is going to turn into more people moving here. It truly will. But if you don’t have the marketing dollars to promote it, then it’s going to be tough.
Thompson: Well, and can I say, just because, you know, I’ve seen some of your social media feeds, and you’ve kind of christened yourself the king of the bathrooms.
Pinnell: Yes, yes.
Thompson: Maybe the king of the thrones. And I try to take my kids, and we try and go camping at a different state park at least twice a year—once in the spring and once in the fall. And so at our spring camping trip this year, we went to Robbers Cave, which is an incredible state park. Great hiking, great lake there, just all kinds of fun stuff to do. But the bathrooms? The new bathrooms that are going in? Folks, I’m telling you, I’ve camped in some state parks, and the bathrooms were, yeah, pretty rough. And these new ones are fantastic.
Pinnell: So we are finishing that project in about 30 days. We will install our final throne inside our state park. We’ve installed over 120 bathroom, new bathroom facilities in our state parks system over the last year and a half, saving the State of Oklahoma— think about this— saving the State of Oklahoma over $30 million. Before we used the new fabrication system that we did about a couple of years ago, we redesigned the entire the new bathroom in-house. This was designed in-house. We were only installing two new bathroom facilities a year. We were averaging only two new bathrooms at an astronomical cost. So we stopped doing that, and we redesigned. We use Lingo Construction. I’ll give a shout-out to Lingo, great Oklahoma company. And we’re going to be installing, I think, about 120 of them in just a year and a half that saved the State of Oklahoma over $30 million from the old way that we were doing business. So, it’s a great story. And I think it’s going to get a lot of moms and dads visiting a state park that maybe never visited a state park before because they know there are clean, safe restroom facilities. It does matter. It matters more than you would think, and we’re happy to provide that service to taxpayers.
Thompson: Well, they’ve done a phenomenal job, and I’m familiar with the folks at Lingo, and they have done a great job out there and continuing.
And we’re excited because last session, our legislature passed a $46 million bond issue. And so for all of our museums and sites of the OHS owns and manages, and so in the next few years, we’re going to be putting a ton of money into our museums and historic sites across the state to make sure we’re addressing those deferred maintenance needs. Everything from ADA issues at the bathrooms to roofs to historic preservation to historic work on some of our buildings, like at Fort Gibson. But we’ve got parking lots and sidewalks and all of those kinds of things that we’re going to be addressing, and we’re excited. That bill takes effect on November 1. So we’re going to start our process working with OCIA, which is the Oklahoma Capital Improvement Authority, to start that bonding process. And hopefully, by fall of next year, we’ll already be into some of the work that we’ll be doing. And so, I couldn’t be more excited for what’s coming. And once again, the hope is that when you have some of these folks come, and they see some beautiful historic sites that aren’t falling apart, that are well taken care of, that word gets out, and more and more people will start coming to see our wonderful cultural sites in Oklahoma.
Pinnell: Oh, I agree. I couldn’t be more excited about that. It’s, I mean, way overdue. And they can be, as I’ve said many times in this interview, they can be the front doors too. I mean, you mentioned, honey, you know, Honey Springs, right? That it I mean, gosh, you just telling that story, Bob. I mean, it got me all fired up to to get out there and see it again. I’ve been many times. People are going to travel anywhere, somewhere. It’s recession-proof in some ways. A mom or dad, grandma, grandpa, anybody, they’re going to get in a car, they’re going to get in a truck, they’re getting RV, they’re going to travel somewhere. And if we don’t tell them to come see America in Oklahoma, then that’s a wasted, that’s a missed opportunity that I don’t want to let that happen. There’s way too much rich history right here. That’s really the theme today inside our department: if you want to see America, you have to see Oklahoma— the good, the bad, the ugly. And again, we got it all. We got a whole history of Oklahoma. It’s so rich, it’s so colorful, it’s so diverse, and we got to tell it all. And if we tell it all, we’re going to get a whole lot more people visiting the state of Oklahoma. And then I firmly believe doing more business here then because of it.
Blackburn: Trait, a trend that I’ve seen just in the last ten years. Well, really 20, maybe a little more than 20 now that I think about it. But telling the entire story, as the governor says, and I was involved with the Battle of the Washita site. Frank Lucas had just been elected in special election to Congress, and he had represented Roger Mills County. The people out there did not want a national park unit. We had town hall meetings where they literally were after Frank, but he stood firm. He said, no, we’re going to do it. Don Nickles was in the Senate at the time, and the reason a lot of people did not want it is that it’s a very sad day in our history when the American government sent soldiers out to attack innocent men, women, and children camped in the valley of the Washita River.
Thompson: We’ve done a podcast on that. So you all can go back in our archives and listen to that one.
Blackburn: That’s the sad moment in history. You know, for 100 years, Custer was celebrated as a great American hero. But it’s a racist attitude. Ethnocentric. Well, America has changed, and Frank Lucas recognized that we need to do something at that site. That’s one of those magical sites. I helped bring the Cheyenne leadership community, both peace chiefs and the elected officials, and at that time, Roger Kennedy at the Park Service in the Clinton administration. And we pulled together and pulled that off and opened that in 1995. A sad chapter in history, but it’s part of it.
And the other flip side of that, of course, I was chairman of the Tulsa Race Riot Commission, as we call it, in ’98 and ’99. But more recently, with Greenwood Rising, I’m so encouraged that fact that the theme of that museum is not just that one bloody day in history when racism breaks out in this violence, but it’s a community sticking together and coming back. And the whole theme of a community rising out of the literal ashes and pulling together and people being creative and working hard and doing all these American things. Just because the pigment of their skin is different, they’ve been persecuted. Coming together and rebuilding Greenwood into a very unique community that’s contributed so much to Oklahoma and to the country. And the fact that we can celebrate that by investing federal, state, local funds, philanthropic funds. And both tells me that we’ve turned the corner on wanting to tell the entire story, not just the happy story and the feel-good story, but the entire story. And it makes us more real when we do that.
Thompson: And Bob, you know, just within the last few days, thanks to the hard work of our great SHPO staff here, and then Senator Lankford’s office was involved and people in Tulsa, John Hope Franklin Reconciliation Center and Greenwood Cultural Center. The entire Greenwood District has now been listed on the National Register of Historic Places, which was an effort years in the making. So that was a big accomplishment that just, you know, happened within the last week or so.
Pinnell: Big win, big, big win for us. And I do think we’re at a tipping point a little bit in this state and in this country. There’s more people today, to Bob’s point, that understand the importance of cultural tourism and the impact that it has from an economic perspective. And so I think you’ve, it’s bipartisan, it’s all different age ranges and generations, that I think it it couldn’t be a better time. Truly. I mean, Bob helped blaze the trail for the last, you know, 35, 40 years, and now young punks like Trait and I can come along. And he mentioned 1979; that was the year I was born, Bob. So, you know, but we recognize that you helped blazed the trail, but man, and I’m not, I don’t think I’m just saying it. I feel it that, you know, I got a lot more people running up the hill with me right now, recognizing that, hey, what we’re selling, what we’re trying to sell, it makes a really big difference in a state.
Blackburn: And too, when people ask me, you know, you see the world coming apart, war in Europe, and political division America. I say, as a historian, I have to be an optimist because I’ve seen the progress we’ve made. And I know that we are standing on the shoulders. You are standing on the shoulders of George Nigh. I’m standing on the shoulders of Blake Wade and going back to George Shirk and Charlie Colcord, those people you said, we’ve got to collect this story.
Thompson: And me, on Bob Blackburn.
(laughter)
Blackburn: Yes, yes. But I can see the progress, and the fact that, yes, we’ve had these dark moments of our history, but we can say, hey, it happened. And this is the meaning that comes out of that, and how can that bind us together as a community? So I’m an optimist about the future of Oklahoma.
Thompson: Well, as we wrap up here, we’ve been talking about all these great sites, and I want to incentivize our people to get out there and visit them. So, in the month of October, we are having a social media travel contest with the Oklahoma Historical Society. So what does that mean, and how does it work? So basically, here’s the thing. If you go visit an Oklahoma Historical Society site, which you can find on our website, okhistory.org, and you take a photo of yourself or take a photo of the site, and you post it on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram, and use the hashtag. And for those of you don’t know, hashtag is the pound sign, and you put #ExploreOHS, so that’s going to help us count your entries in that contest. And whoever visits the most sites, now get this. Get this. Whoever visits the most sites, on November 5 at Honey Springs battlefield, when we unveil the new exhibit, you’re going to get to fire the cannon.
Pinnell: That’s so cool.
Thompson: Now, Matt, you were with us at Pawnee Bill Ranch back in July. That cannon is no peashooter. It’s a real deal.
Pinnell: It is.
Thompson: And so you’re going to get to fire that, and then we’ve also got another basket of prizes that we’ll give you also. But go to our website, okhistory.org/exploreOHS. You can see all the contest rules there, but October’s a beautiful month to be traveling around the state of Oklahoma. Get out. It’s fall break. Take your kids out. Go to some of our sites out there, learn some great Oklahoma history, take some photos out there, and tag us with them. And then you can be eligible to win this prize. And it’s going to be a lot of fun. Unfortunately, employees of OHS can’t do it, so I won’t get to fire the cannon even though, as part of my job, I get to go to all these sites myself. So, Matt, I just want to thank you for being with us today. It’s so great to talk to you. It’s so great to just hear your enthusiasm for the state of Oklahoma. Keep doing all the great work that you’re doing out there. And we just appreciate you.
Pinnell: I appreciate you all. You know, this was a real treat to listen to this history and where you all want to take the Historical Society as well. So, I look forward to partnering with you. I mean, because that’s what it’s all about. It’s doing this together. It’s going to be a team effort to make Oklahoma, and that exclamation point on the end of Oklahoma, as George Nigh said. It is true, and it can be realized if we work together, sovereign to sovereign state to city to local level, and looking forward in the next four years. So thank you all for having me today.
Thompson: Very good. Well, thank you all for being with us today and listening to the podcast, and we will talk to you next time. You’ve been listening to A Very OK Podcast, hosted by Trait Thompson and Dr. Bob Blackburn. The podcast is produced by the Oklahoma Historical Society. Visit us at okhistory.org, and find us on social media by searching for @okhistory. I encourage you to purchase a membership to OHS to help us continue our mission to collect, preserve, and share Oklahoma’s unique and fascinating history.
