A Very OK Podcast
Episode 30: “A Conversation Between Governors”
November 21, 2023
Episode Transcript
(upbeat music playing)
Trait Thompson: Hello, and welcome to A Very OK Podcast. My name is Trait Thompson. I’m the executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society, and I have someone a little bit different with me today. I have Michael Williams, who’s a curator at the Oklahoma Territorial Museum in Guthrie. Just for this episode, we’re switching things up a little bit. Don’t worry, folks, Bob will be back on our next episode. But, Michael, welcome to the podcast.
Michael Williams: Oh. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Thompson: Well, Michael, the reason I wanted to have you in it is because last month in—well, this was really in October— you all hosted an event up at the Scottish Rite Temple in Guthrie, and it was a fireside chat between Governor Nigh, Governor George Nigh and Governor Brad Henry, and this was an event that was hosted by the Daughters of the American Revolution to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Oklahoma Territorial Museum. And you and I had the great pleasure of moderating that conversation between the two governors. And I have to say, it was a phenomenal experience. And today on this episode, you’re going to get to hear that conversation. Michael, what was that like for you to be a part of that conversation?
Williams: Oh, man. It was it was wonderful. It was really, I don’t know, it’s kind of a highlight, you know. It’s like, I always looked up to George Nigh, you know, because, you know, I’m in middle school whenever he becomes governor, and he’s from McAlester, and my family hails from McAlester. So, you know, there’s family ties to Governor Nigh and things like that. So it was really, really cool to be up on stage with him. And then Brad Henry, you know, I met Brad Henry a few times when I worked in the airlines and, you know, so, it was kind of nice, you know, it was nice to sit there and have this conversation with him and talk about, you know, the things that motivated them and, you know, what got them into politics and service.
Thompson: Sometimes I have to sit there and, you know, working in the field that we work in, we encounter a lot of great Oklahomans. You know, I’ve had a chance to meet people like Tom Stafford, people like Enoch Kelly Haney, people who have been history-makers in Oklahoma. And as I have those times, like we did, where we’re moderating that discussion, I kind of have to pinch myself a little bit and think, how in the world am I sitting up here on stage with these two gentlemen, and with you, having this conversation at this moment? I mean, these are people who have, of course, you know, if you haven’t heard George Nigh before, then you’re in for a treat today. But Brad Henry has been an incredible politician and statesman in Oklahoma. He accomplished a lot while he was governor. And the fact that we got to have that conversation, I never want to get tired or have those routines and those moments where it just seems routine, you know what I’m saying?
Williams: Oh, yeah. No, exactly. I mean, and it’s not routine. And I think that’s why you’re using this as a podcast is because, you know, this is something special. You know, these are people. They’re not really talking about politics. They’re just kind of reflecting on their time in, you know, serving the state of Oklahoma and, you know, just what motivated them. And it was just completely fascinating to be up there and listen to them talk and just how wonderful they were and how well they treated us. I just was blown away by it.
Thompson: Yeah. And it’s obvious that they both have a lot of respect for each other. You know, obviously they’re both members of the Democratic Party. They’re both Democratic governors, but just from two different generations but people who really respect each other.
Williams: Yeah. No, I saw that. And just the devotion to Governor Nigh that Governor Henry had, it was just, I was really impressed by that. I mean, this was, these guys were friends. And, you know, you could tell that Brad Henry really looked up to George Nigh, and I was just I was like, man, this is awesome. This is so cool to see this.
Thompson: Well, I had such a great time talking to these two gentlemen. And one of the reasons was is, like you said, we didn’t just talk about politics and which would be easy to do, you could easily fill up in our conversation and just talk about the politics of it all. But we really had a chance to ask them about their own personal motivations, their families, what, you know, what drove them to accomplish what they accomplished. So, you really get more of a personal look in this conversation at, kind of behind the façade of these two gentlemen.
Williams: Right. Right. I totally felt like we were just sitting around a table having a conversation with people that we were friends with. You know, that was the that was kind of the vibe that was going on. Yeah, it was a wonderful experience.
Thompson: It was, it was. And I really appreciated getting to be a part of it. Before we get into the conversation, though, I wanted to take the opportunity because you have been up at the— how long have you been at the Territorial Museum now?
Williams: I started there in January 2011 as an intern. And then, then I rolled in to being a 999. So a part-time employee and, you know, left for a little bit, and a job came open. So, I started back there in October of 2012. So, it’s been a little bit. Yeah, I’ve been there for a while.
Thompson: So tell me, some of our, our friends that are listening today, they might not have had a chance to come visit the museum. Can you tell them a little bit about it and what subject area of Oklahoma history you all focus on up there?
Williams: Well, you know, like I said, it’s the Oklahoma Territorial Museum. So we are dealing with, you know, Oklahoma Territory. We start with the Land Run of 1889, you know, that opens up the Unassigned Lands to non-Native settlement. The creation of a territorial government, the movement to statehood, and then we stop when the capital moves from Guthrie to Oklahoma City in 1910. So that’s kind of our range. So anything that’s happening in Oklahoma Territory, and when I say that, I mean the western half of the current state of Oklahoma. You know, I mean, these are two separate entities that come together at statehood. So that’s our main focus.
Thompson: And, you know, as many people may know, but Guthrie was the capital of Oklahoma Territory. The Enabling Act said Guthrie was going to be the capital of the state of Oklahoma until at least 1913. And of course, that kind of got mixed up when they had the initiative petition, or the initiative vote in 1910 that moved the capital, I think, before some of the folks in Guthrie were expecting it to be moved.
Williams: Right, right, right. Yeah.
Thompson: But Guthrie is a great place to tell that story of that period in Oklahoma history when it was that 1890 to 1907 territorial time.
Williams: Well, you know, and everything’s still kind of in place. You know, most of the things that were built, you know, after the land run and, you know, where a lot of these historic events took place, they’re still standing. You know, like, like Oklahoma City, you know, you can’t find a lot of the places that we talk about our stories, you know, they were they were torn down and modernized and things like that. And so we’re kind of fortunate that Guthrie was somewhat time capsuled, you know, with the moving of the capital from Guthrie to Oklahoma City, it just stopped everything.
Thompson: One of the unique things about the Territorial Museum is there is a very important historical building that is tied to the museum. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Williams: Yeah, yeah, we’re attached to the Carnegie Library, and I believe it was the second one that was built in the state. The first one was down here in Oklahoma City, but it’s the oldest one that remains standing, and it’s the only one with a dome.
Thompson: Oh, that’s interesting.
Williams: Yeah, it’s very interesting. I mean, even Andrew Carnegie was not thrilled that they were spending money on a dome.
Thompson: Oh, interesting.
Williams: he thought it could have been better used buying, you know, books for a library.
Thompson: Well, it’s interesting because that conversation carries into our own State Capitol that was built from 1914 to 1917. And, of course, it was built without a dome, and it was that exact same conversation of, well, we feel like the money that would be used for a dome could be used for something else. And it wasn’t until 85 years later that we finally got around to putting the dome on. So, this seems like it might have been a common conversation in early Oklahoma history.
Williams: Yeah, yeah, and I think so. I mean, it’s like, you know, back then, you know, you’re looking at some very progressive people and looking at the role of government as, you know, taking care of the people and doing things to benefit the people and all the fluff kind of wasn’t really necessary.
Thompson: Right.
Williams: You know, and so but, you know, it’s cool to have those domes there.
Thompson: Well, it’s a beautiful building. And if you go visit the museum, you’ll get to go inside of that historic Carnegie Library building as well. And I’m excited because a couple of years ago, we got some funding out of the legislature. And so we’re over the next few years, we’re going to be able to do some great restoration work to that building.
Williams: Yeah. I’m looking forward to that. It’s—you know—there was a restoration project in 2006 leading up to, you know, the centennial of statehood and things like that. But, yeah, you know, you’ve constantly got to be working to take care of them. You know.
Thompson: What’s one of your favorite exhibits in the museum right now?
Williams: Oh, man. Well, we’re looking probably my favorite, I have to say, my favorite one is on the mummy Elmer McCurdy.
Thompson: Yeah. I mean, well, and you’re an expert on Elmer.
Williams: Oh, yeah.
Thompson: You’ve had, you get media requests from all over the world to talk about Elmer, right?
Williams: Right, no, yeah, I just last was it last month, like the last two weeks of last month, I was working with a Japanese production company, and they were putting on a, you know, little documentary about him, and the guy that approached me, he was like, it’s the the 20/20 of Japan, you know, so the 20/20 TV show of Japan. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. You know, so we provided some, you know, photos, and they sent me a questionnaire and, you know, I answered it for him, sent it back to him.
Thompson: How’s your Japanese?
Williams: Yeah, it’s really good.
(laughing)
Williams: Really good. I think that’s probably why we didn’t do the on-camera.
(laughter)
Thompson: Well, that’s great. Well, folks need to go– Elmer McCurdy was a notorious outlaw, and the story about his body after he died is a wild and wooly one. And, I’ll just say you need to go up there to the Territorial Museum and check it out. When are you guys open?
Williams: We are open Monday through Saturday from 9 o’clock to 5 o’clock.
Thompson: Well, go check it out. It’s a great museum. It’s a short drive from Oklahoma City, and if you’re in other parts of the state it would make a good road trip. Guthrie is a beautiful city. A lot of that original Victorian architecture from the 1890s is still there. You can make a day out of just hanging out in Guthrie.
Williams: Oh, yeah, for sure.
Thompson: Well, folks, with that, let’s listen to our conversation between Governor George Nigh and Governor Brad Henry.
Williams: Perhaps, perhaps the epitome of man and medium, melding together the radio broadcasts of President Franklin Roosevelt from 1933 through 1944 are among the best known presidential uses of radio. These fireside chats were planned as conversations rather than stiff public speeches, and as such, they were widely listened to and became an important element in White House communications for more than a decade. How many chats were dependent on the sources, but most agreed between 27 and 31 were broadcast by the time the last one aired in June of 1944.
Thompson: And Michael, in keeping with the spirit of these fireside chats, we’re going to have a question- and-answer period today that covers topics like American history, Oklahoma history, opinion, and all of the questions that we’re asking today were actually submitted by people from the audience and from people who submitted them online. So we’re really excited to get into the conversation here today.
Williams: Thinking of the time of the first fireside chats, the United States was going through, I don’t know, growing pains, maybe. I mean, there was some rough stuff happening. I mean, this is the heart of the Depression. Franklin Roosevelt is taking the lead and reassuring the country that we were going to be okay. And, as June 6, 2024, approaches, that’s going to be the 80th anniversary of the D-Day landings in Europe. Nearly 5,500 Oklahomans lost their lives during that turbulent time. One of my uncles was one of those. Governors, could you speak about your personal experiences with this period of history and share your thoughts on how the war impacted Oklahoma’s economy and future industry?
George Nigh: Well, let me start out by, before I answer your question, apologizing that, as I said in the introduction, all the years I’ve been involved in stuff, I’m having trouble hearing, so I may not answer the direct question because even sitting here, I have difficulty hearing. But if we’re talking about Franklin Roosevelt, I can’t complain about a guy having difficulty because he sat in a wheelchair. Elected four times as president of the United States, was governor of New York, had polio as an adult, and was confined to a wheelchair most of his years as president of the United States. And I think about an agreement that was reached, Brad, for us as politicians, you wonder. I’m sitting up here. I thought how many times I scratched, and people say, look at the former governor. He’s scratching, or he’s crossing his legs. But Roosevelt had an agreement. The president of the United States had agreement with a press association. No one would take his picture when he was introduced. No one would comment on that he couldn’t stand up. And many times when he stood to speak, his son, who was in the military, was assigned to him to assist him from getting to a chair from here to the podium, and all photographers and all people in the crowd made the commitment they would not photograph him. When he lived in New York and he went home and he drove himself around as president, he had a convertible, and he drove around in his neighborhood. And as president of the United States affected by polio, sitting in the driver’s seat, he visited with his neighbors. When he came one time, when I was on high school during World War II to McAlester, Oklahoma, through the Rock Island Line, going from Portsmouth, Arkansas, west. My best friend’s dad had a restaurant called the White House, and as a kid in high school, junior high maybe, I went down to the railroad station and stood right behind, right in front of, behind the train, and Franklin Roosevelt was on the caboose. His son helped him to the podium. No photographs. And he said, I came to McAlester because I wanted to eat at the White House.
(laughter)
Nigh: I’ll never forget that. But I’ll never forget listening to his fireside chats. Now before television, and we depended on radio. Can you imagine fireside chats? The president of the United States, and as a kid in school, I listened every week to Franklin Roosevelt’s fireside chats before hardly anybody in this room was born, and hardly ever did he attack somebody personally. Hardly ever did he call him a dirty word or name. But he talked about how things were. But just imagine that, I was born in 1927, so 1932, just remember the Depression that this nation went through, and he was elected in ’32 as President of the United States. His leadership, basically just sitting in his wheelchair, he basically brought the country through the Depression. Then he brought the country through World War II, and he died shortly before the Japan surrender in 1945. But I want to say that Franklin Roosevelt just personally motivated America; the PWA, the WPA, all the programs he put together to try to give people jobs when people couldn’t support their families. Their kids couldn’t have anything to eat. There were no jobs, and he created jobs, and he was the chief executive officer.
He was not the dictator. He was not he was not the emperor. He was not the president. I mean, he was not the king. He was the president. He was an executive. And he led personally and motivated this country, and just think he could have been president 16 years, and now we limit how long you can be president. But just think if we had limited back in my days, if it we’d been limited to how long he could serve, I don’t know what would have happened in this country. Our economy did a (whoosing noise) in the Depression, the war, everything. And just to think that he and Winston Churchill, two senior citizens, basically saved the world. And I will say, from the day that I met him, I went up and shook his hand on the caboose of the Rock Island Line. And I said, golly! And then I want to tell the story. There was a guy from Pittsburg County named Carl Albert, who was born in Bug Tussle, Oklahoma. Bug Tussle. It used to be called a different name, but they wanted to improve their image.
(laughter)
Nigh: So they were called Flower Mound. So they wanted a different name. So they changed it to Bug Tussle. Carl Albert was born in a log cabin in rural Pittsburg County outside of McAlester. He went to eight grades of school in a two-room schoolhouse, and in eight grades, he had two teachers—one that taught him first grade through fourth, and fifth grade through eighth. And when I came home from the war, World War II, I delivered groceries for my daddy’s grocery store, and Carl Albert traded at my daddy’s store, and I deliver groceries to him every weekend he was home in Oklahoma. And they would always add an extra 30 minutes to my visit with him because I couldn’t just say, hey, here’s your milk and bread. I had to sit down and talk to Carl Albert, who’d been elected congressman who’d been born in Bug Tussle, and he was called the “Little Giant from Little Dixie” because he was under five feet, something like that. And Carl Albert told me that in the eighth grade at Bug Tussle, the then member of Congress from that district, our district, came to the school in a horse and buggy and spoke at an assembly program. And Carl Albert said, that’s what I want to be when I grow up, a congressman, in the eighth grade at Bug Tussle.
Later, when he became congressman, he became speaker of the House of US Representatives. Twice there were no vice presidents. He was next in line to be president of the United States, a heartbeat away from the president, from Bug Tussle who had heard a congressman. He didn’t say, I want to be this because I want to raise taxes, lower taxes, raise teacher salaries. He said I want to do that. He wanted to serve. And guess when he was inducted as speaker of the US House of Representatives, who the official, there were two official representatives from the state of Oklahoma that participated. The governor of Oklahoma at that time was a Republican. So they sent me as a Democratic lieutenant governor to represent Oklahoma when he was taken in as speaker. And they introduced a lady who got the standing ovation. I didn’t. A lady from Bug Tussle who had taught him for four years in school, and he said, I want to be a congressman and became the second most powerful man in the world. And I want to say that his personal involvement helped save America. Franklin Roosevelt’s personal involvement saved America.
And so I’m happy to have a fireside chat, and I’m happy to speak yes to women and men, but to women and say, in our Constitution, when we say all men are created equal, nah, we really mean all people. All humans are created equal, regardless of sex or race. And that’s where we are today. And I want to encourage, particularly these students. Don’t think about the issue particularly, think about public service, being involved in your state.
Williams: When they asked me to do this yesterday, there was a there was supposed to be another moderator, but apparently she was in an accident and unable to attend. So I kind of got thrown into the fire. But one of the things, one of the things that I was thinking about was— what was—oh, I hate to say like trigger moment, but what was, what lit the fire for you? You know, you guys want to be the governor or to serve the public, you know, to serve the people. I mean, this is this is, you know, this is a big thing. You know, you guys are, you know, links in a chain that goes back to Charles Haskell being inaugurated on the steps of the Carnegie Library. And so, I’m curious. It’s like, what made you want to do this. Brad?
Henry: Well, thank you very much. And I’ve got to say, I could sit and listen to George Nigh tell stories all day long.
(applause)
Nigh: Wait a minute.
(laughter)
Nigh: I want to say that when I was governor, one of my interns was a college student named Brad Henry.
Henry: Very true. Well, George Nigh is literally and figuratively my mentor, and he took me in, as he said, when I was a sophomore in college, and allowed me to intern in his office. But it was not your typical intern experience. One of my jobs, one of my many jobs around the office, was every morning to get there a little early, go through the main newspapers and cut out any article that related to the governor or the legislature, legislation, pending legislation, things of interest to the governor’s office. And then I would copy them all and make a packet. Well, George would come in and sit down with me while I was reading the paper, trying to cut his clips out and would just visit with me about the day’s news or whatever was on his mind. As you can imagine, it was just absolutely fascinating, absolutely fascinating. And I’ve got to say, there are few, if any, people who know Oklahoma history better than George Nigh. And you all, I hope you realize what a special treat this is to just get to listen to this wonderful Oklahoman. He is— I hate to embarrass him, but he’s 96 years old.
(applause)
Henry: You should. And George always says nobody ever wants to be 97 until you’re 96.
Nigh: But I’m not as old as the state.
Henry: That’s true. He’s not as old as the state. So, so very quick to get to get to the question, I just had to recognize my friend and mentor George Nigh because he’s a big part of my, you know, my quest and my decision-making in my drive to serve people. I love the way he puts it, and I absolutely agree with him. It’s not about politics. It’s not about being a politician, in my view. It’s about public service.
And so, first of all, I can tell you that, as long as I can remember, I grew up in a family of public servants, and I wanted to serve the public. My mother was a schoolteacher. My aunt and grandparents were schoolteachers. My father was a state representative and a county judge. My uncle was a county judge. My cousin, Robert Henry, who you all probably know was state representative and then later attorney general, and on and on. I just always wanted to serve. And so I always just knew at some point I would run for the legislature and I always expected it would be the House of Representatives, because my father was in the House, and my cousin was in the House, and there had been a long line of Henrys in the House of Representatives in District 26 from Shawnee. And so when it came time to make that decision, my dad pulled me aside and said, you shouldn’t run for the House. You should run for the Senate. And I said, why? He said, because you only have to run every four years and not every two years. So, I thought that was pretty good reasoning. So I ran for the Senate and served for ten years.
I never really had a design to run for governor. I never had an agenda to run for governor. But at the time, in 2001, I was trying to recruit people, and I believed at that time the Democrat could still win in Oklahoma, and so I was trying to recruit good Democrats. And everybody just said, no, you can’t win, you can’t win. And people started saying, finally started saying, well, you know, if you think Democrat can win, why don’t you run? The bottom line is I looked back to the service of George Nigh and Henry Bellmon. It wasn’t just a Democrat thing, it was a servant thing. I met Henry Bellmon when I was working for George Nigh and became very close and good friends with Henry Bellmon. I think George Nigh and Henry Bellmon were two of the greatest governors that this state has seen. Those two individuals really inspired me to take that risk, take that step. I mean, I knew that realistically, you know, I had little chance of winning in 2002 when I filed for governor. Heck, most people didn’t think I would win the Democratic primary. So, you know, I think it’s important to be willing to take a risk to put yourself out there, to be willing to fail. Because if you’re not willing to fail, if you’re not willing to make a mistake, you’re never going to be successful. And that’s what it boiled down to me. There were possibly others that could have gotten elected in 2002 if they had run, but they were afraid to run. And I know George’s story. It’s a better story, but I’ve just always been drawn to public service. My uncle used to say, public service is the rent you pay for the space you occupy.
Williams: Yeah. Oh, yeah, I love how that sounds. You know, I was also thinking about this. And, you know, I spend a lot of time driving back and forth from Guthrie to to Oklahoma City where I live, and, you know, so I have time to think, you know, and like I said, when I got on there. So I thought about this and I was just like, I was like, man, you know, we owe a debt, you know, to the people that have come before us and then we have this responsibility to the people that follow us. You know, and, I think it’s the same, you know, it’s the same debt, you know, we owe it to both directions. We’ve got to honor the people that come before us and we’ve got to help promote those people that follow us. So is there, are there people that that you currently like mentor towards, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, towards public service and things like that.
Nigh: Well, I’m not specifically mentoring anybody in public service except the young people. And I get wound up, so I want to apologize. But with the students here, I’ll go back to what Carl Albert said: “That’s what I want to be when I grow up.” In the ninth grade, I took a vocations class at McAlester, and you wrote down in the ninth grade, 1941, you wrote down what you wanted to be when you grew up. It was before Pearl Harbor. And I wrote down governor, and in vocations, you wrote down what you wanted to be, and then you discussed that for the semester. Doctor, lawyer, merchant. You discussed it further, and I wrote down governor in the ninth grade. I did not write down what I wanted to do, what I wanted to do with the issues. I wanted to serve and I wanted, like I said while ago, even I, in the ninth grade said, I want to be governor.
Now, I ran for the legislature. I was a senior in college at East Central at Ada and had been active in local politics, and a state representative called me and said, If you want to be in politics, you need to run for the legislature this year. And I said, I’m in college, 1950, I’m in college, a senior. He said, you need to run for the seat that I’m, the reason I called you is that you don’t want to run against an incumbent. You want an open seat. You’ll have a better chance of winning an open seat, and I’m not going to run for reelection. You run and take my place. I filed for office while I was still in college. In May, I went to my commencement exercises, graduated in June. That year was the primary. I got elected to the legislature. I was the youngest member of the Oklahoma legislature at that time.
But what I was going to say is that while I was a student at East Central running for the legislature, I was invited to give a commencement speech. So in 1950, I made my first commencement speech. I’ve not missed a year since 1950 of making at least one commencement speech in all the counties in Oklahoma. But so I’ve made hundreds of commencement speeches. And I want to tell these students, here you are at a graduation ceremony, but you’re the speaker at a commencement, and commence means to begin. But you’re speaking at the end of a section of your life. Now you’re beginning another one. And so when you begin that next one, what do you want to be? Be a public servant. And remember this: you cannot be drafted to be congressmen, legislator, governor, or president. You have to offer yourself. So don’t get mad because someone is a dirty politician and offered themself because under the law, in this democracy, you have to offer yourself. And I want to, but you don’t have to just run for office. I want to say commence as you go into your next section of life to be involved in your community— local, state, national—be involved with your fellow man, your fellow, be involved serving the people. Yeah, be a politician. Take out an ad, shake hands, kiss a few babies, make a speech. But then, be a public servant. And that’s why all 77 counties are important to Oklahoma. Not just the one you come from.
So I want to encourage you, and then I’ll close this as I’m sitting in here just thinking. First time I was in this building, this building, in case everybody doesn’t know, the original State Capitol in Guthrie, Oklahoma, Indian Territory was in Guthrie. Our State Capitol— we borrowed it from the Masonic Temple. We borrowed the Masonic Temple. The Legislature met in this building. The first time I was ever in this building, I was a senior in high school in 1945. I was master counselor of the DeMolays, and we had them sponsored by the Masons, and the DeMolays had a state meeting here, and that was my first year here. And then I came back later as a legislator, and we had celebrations. And then I came back as governor. History is important. But, remember commencements. History has already happened. All of us should be involved in what’s coming on. What are we supposed to commence to be doing right now? Be involved.
(applause)
Thompson: One thing that Governor Nigh did not mention is when he goes and gives those commencement addresses, he doesn’t have a stack of notes like I have with me this morning. He writes one thing on each of his fingers, and that’s his notes for his commencement addresses. I could never do that. So, I’m always impressed by that. Governor Nigh, you had mentioned, and I want to talk about this a little bit because I always find it fascinating, and these are good stories usually. Campaigning is a part of becoming, holding office. And you all have been a part of many, many campaigns. I’d love to know if you have any great campaign trail stories you could share with us, interesting people that you’ve met, funny situations or encounters, or maybe even just good food you’ve had on the campaign trail.
Henry: Boy, I, so many stories that I can’t share, actually. You know, campaign, I tell people, everyone, at least one time in their lives, should experience a statewide campaign. It’s the most incredible experience. At least for me, it was the most incredible experience I’ve had because I think, even though when Kim and I, and this was a family decision, and when we set out to run, we weren’t delusional. We were realistic. We knew that the probability was we were going to lose the election, but we believed there was a possibility. We believed if we ran the right campaign, if we executed well and didn’t make mistakes and did everything according to plan that we could win.
But I was a little leery of traveling across the state. And I figured out after about three or four weeks into the campaign, every day, usually Kim going one direction and me going the opposite direction. Kim was my number one surrogate on the trail. I figured out, Kim and I met about three of four weeks after we started this rigorous schedule. We had dinner at a little restaurant in Shawnee one night and we said, you know, regardless of the outcome, this is a great experience because we are gaining a more mature perspective of Oklahoma. We’re getting to make new friends in new places that we would see or go. People that we would never know. And that really, to me, was what made it worthwhile. Getting to see the, you know, the wonderful landscape of Oklahoma and the different things that communities large and small across the state have to offer. I mean, it’s just, you ought to at least just get out and travel Oklahoma and see all these things that you know are out there that you haven’t done. It’s even better in person. The food was fantastic. I probably gained 12 pounds during the campaign. But—
Nigh: Let me use Brad as an example because, one of the things you want to know is you want to, if you’re in a position of responsibility as you go through life, one of the first things you need to know is you need to work with your fellow person, your fellow man, your fellow. You need to work. You don’t want to draw a line and say, get out of here, or you’re a dirty. You don’t want to do that. You want to work together. I say, don’t say, let’s reach a compromise. Let’s reach a consensus. Because somebody comes from Boise City as a state legislator or somebody comes from Idabel as a state legislator, they’re supposed to represent their people, but then you run for governor. You’re supposed to represent all their people. So it’s a tough, you’re running for a local job. You say, hey, I want to build this road. I want to do this. You’re just doing a lot of local stuff.
But as governor, you got to say, hey, I like all 77 counties, So you, but to be successful as a public servant, you have to be working with your fellow man. Work across the aisle. Brad Henry, Democratic governor, had a former Republican state senator on his— I can’t think of the name. Not staff, but his cabinet from Enid that it was a Republican state senator. He was a Democrat. He became governor, and he put the head of a state agency and on the state staff. When I was governor running for re-election, Lloyd Rader was the head of the Department of Welfare. He was very involved in politics, and I wanted to get welfare out of politics. I didn’t think welfare should be a political issue, and Lloyd Rader announced his retirement. And as governor, running for re-election, I was going to appoint a head of of Welfare. I said, how do I take it? My gosh. And I was in a campaign meeting and I said, Henry Bellmon had just retired from the US Senate. He was the first Republican governor ever elected as governor in Oklahoma from Billings, Oklahoma; went to the legislature. Went to became United States Senator, came home. I said I want to appoint Henry Bellmon to head up welfare. A former governor, former congressman former secretary, head of welfare. My staff said you don’t want to appoint a Republican. I said, that will take it out of politics. And I called him, his wife answered the phone. He was home in Billings. I said, Shirley this is George Nigh, is Henry there? She said, he’s out on his tractor. He was plowing. I said, when he comes in, have him call me. And he called me, and I said, Henry, I want you to come out of retirement and be head of a state agency. Now, can you imagine asking a former public servant who had done so much in Washington and Oklahoma to be head of a state department? And he said, why would I do that?
(laughter)
Nigh: I said, Henry, the people need you. We need to make it a classic public example of nonpartisan government. So then he said, well, let me think about it. About 15 minutes, he called me back, former Governor Bellmon called me back and said, okay, if I take that, who’s going to run it? Me or you?
(laughter)
Nigh: And I said, Henry, you’ve been governor. You know what you expect of an agency head. You go run it. And just imagine that one of the reasons I was successful and being re-elected was that I appointed a former Republican national and state official to be head of a state agency. And when I was lieutenant governor and governor, the Republicans’ caucus would invite me to come and speak to the Republican senator caucus at the state legislature, and I was a Democratic official. And so when I campaigned, in all my, when I was introduced, and she talked about being involved. People here are involved in my campaigns, but at all my campaigns, I always had, in every location where I had a committee, always had someone from the Republican party. I always had someone of both sexes and all that sort of stuff, because I wanted to be governor of all the people. I didn’t want to be head of the Democratic Party. So commence work with your fellow man, and you can do stuff and be involved. And I want to commend this group that is telling these students, be involved, be involved. Don’t draw a line, but go over the line and be involved.
(applause)
Thompson: So I’ve heard that there’s a vacancy in the US speaker of the House. Anybody want to nominate George Nigh?
(applause)
Thompson: I’d like to talk a little bit about Oklahoma during your terms and where we are today, and how do you feel about the direction that Oklahoma is currently going and in relation to the things that you were able to accomplish during your term?
Henry: I’m glad I got this question first. No, I’m just kidding. Just kidding. So, I’m very concerned about where we’re headed in terms of the process at the Capitol, the ability of of our legislators and our other elected officials to get along, to work together to pursue policy that is truly in the best interests of the people. Today, it just seems—and I’m not pointing fingers at anyone directly. I’m just saying that this is sort of the evolution of elected service in this country, not just in this state. And I think that I’m hopeful that we can all recognize that the direction we’re headed, where the parties are becoming more polarized, more acrimonious and contentious. Each day, both parties stand up and point fingers at the other and assess blame rather than, you know, hold themselves accountable and take responsibility and say, we’re going to work across the aisle and work together.
That was the linchpin, I think, of my administration as governor. I wanted to work with everyone, and George pointed it out. I had many Republicans that served on my staff and cabinet. One thing that you may not know that ties in historically, since this is all about history and the preservation of history. I served eight years, two terms, eight years in the governor’s office, and I governed over more scenarios than any governor in the history of our state has or any governor in the future likely will. And that is the first two years I was governor, the Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate. Democrats had a very narrow margin in the House but a much bigger margin in the Senate. The next two years I was governor, Republicans controlled the House by a very narrow margin, and Democrats controlled the Senate. The third two years I was governor, Republicans controlled the House, and the Senate was evenly divided: 24 Republicans, 24 Democrats. So they had to have a Democrat and Republican president pro tem— a power-sharing agreement. And the final two years I was governor, Republicans controlled both houses. I don’t know what all that says about me, but my point is that I had to govern under, you know, every scenario. And I’m very proud of the successes of our administration and the team that I assembled around me. But we couldn’t have done it without bipartisan outreach, without bipartisan help, without including Republicans in everything that we did.
My best friends became the Republican speaker of the House and president pro tem of the Senate, and still are today. I fear we’ve lost that ability because it’s turned into a situation where it’s really more about power. Gaining power for the party, holding on to that power, and crushing the other side. And both sides are guilty of it. Everyone’s guilty of it. But, that’s what it’s become as opposed to what George and I like to talk about: public service. They are a bunch of politicians, in my view. I’m sorry. They’re not public servants anymore. We need to get back to public service.
Williams: Well, you know, that takes me back to the fireside chat. You know, the concept of that, you know, and you know, Roosevelt is trying to lead the country out of these hard times, but he’s asking everyone to make sacrifices for the betterment of the country. Can we get back to that? Can we get to a point where we have a leader that can go on and ask the people to make the sacrifices necessary to move us forward?
Nigh: Well, I think that’s where we have to go. To me, it’s just amazing that when I first went to the legislature in 1950, we would debate in the legislature. We only met every other year then. The legislature now meets every year. You only met for five months, every two years. But when I went to the legislature, we debated, And then when we got through debating, when we adjourned, we went across the street, and we all had dinner together. Like the guys that we’d argued with, the Republicans or the other Democrats. Because keep in mind, if one party controls something, the party is going to be divided. And let me just say, I’m not trying to be political, but just the speaker of the House of Representatives, which is Republican, just kicked out their speaker. And they did it with Republicans and Democratics jointly voting to kick him out. You have to work together, to me, to get something done. I don’t think that just because I’m the governor that I’m the dictator. I have to go back to what I said a while ago. You’re the executor. Now, you may want the law to be different, but even if you’re governor and you disagree with the law, you don’t get to say, I’m governor. You say, I’m a citizen, and I abide by the law. So, I’m just saying that you have to serve all the people, and it shouldn’t be just partisan service. And you, well, I can just think of all kinds of examples how they refused to talk to each other. And, can you imagine that I’m governor and I want the legislature to do something, and I ain’t going to go talk to them. Well, how can I expect, how did I expect when I was governor that I was going to get to legislators to do what I wanted if I didn’t visit with them about what I thought we should do? Or they would come to me, and they couldn’t tell me what to do. They said, well, we’ll override your veto. And I said, that’s the law. You have that right. So if you want to override my veto, you override it. I’m not going to call you dirty names because we go by what the law is.
And I also say this, and I want to say it to everybody here. I want to say that when you read the law and when you agree to an agreement, make sure before you do all of the things that you’ve read every single sentence, paragraph, phrase in the agreement. You just can’t change your mind after you’ve signed the agreement. And the argument over the with the Indian tribes, the Native Americans over the casinos, when the governor wanted to raise their contribution part to the state from their casinos, they said, well, wait a minute, let’s sit down and talk. No, because this is and we’ve signed a contract with the State of Oklahoma. And this contract, and he said, yeah, but the contract expires June 30 or whatever it is. And it did. It says in the contract, this contract expires June 30, 2022. Whatever it is. And he said, well, it’s expired. And they said, did you read the next statement? The next statement, after “it expires,” it says, but if the two parties haven’t come together with a new agreement, the old agreement remains in effect. So the courts are supposed to say, do they really still have an agreement? And so, under our Constitution, the court can tell you which one’s right, which one’s wrong.
But the phrase, now since we’re talking about Oklahoma history. All of Oklahoma except the Panhandle and three state, three counties in the southwest were in the Louisiana Purchase. The US government bought all this Louisiana Purchase that goes from New Orleans up from France. France had gotten it from Spain. We bought it from France, and they sent a couple of guys up that said, go up and check the boundaries out. It starts at New Orleans. You go up the Mississippi River til you reach the Red River. You go northwest on the Red River to a certain point. Then crossing the line, you proceed north to a certain point. Well, we became a state and we said, “Texas, where’s the boundary?” And normally when two units come together and there’s a river, it’s the main channel of the river. But in the Louisiana Purchase it said, you go up to the Red River, you proceed northwest, dada, dada. Then crossing the river, you proceed north. The entire Red River is in Oklahoma. And why did we tell them we wanted to own it all? They had discovered oil in the river basin.
(laughter)
Nigh: So all of the oil wells in this Red River, they paid Oklahoma taxes, nothing to Texas. And then they found out that as they were going up the Red River, they came to a fork in the road. They came to another channel, and they went to the north. And when we became a state, we said, hey, those people didn’t stay on the main channel. They took a smaller channel and went to the north. So three counties in southwestern Oklahoma used to be one county in the state of Texas. And so that’s part of why we’re the shape we’re in.
But now, how did we get the Panhandle? Why was it “No Man’s Land?” Well, it’s because when we had slavery, if a state owned a slave, if a state where they had like had any part of land that was north of this line, the whole state could not have slaves. And the state of Texas that had become—excuse me— Texas had been a part of Mexico, and they rebelled against Mexico, and the US government helped Texas become a nation for ten years. Texas was a nation, and they wanted to join the Union, but they had land in the northern part of the Panhandle, and they couldn’t come in as a slave state. So they just whopped it off, and it became "No Man’s Land.”
Williams: I’ve got a question.
Nigh: Okay.
Williams: All right, since Governor Nigh brought up, Texas, you know, we’re here talking about Oklahoma, but he brought up Texas. So I think we got to ask the probably the most important question of this of this panel, who wins the game on Saturday?
(laughter)
Nigh: I think it’s a question of who’s going to the game this Saturday? But you just have to understand. Read the small print. Read what all the agreement is when you shake hands. And just remember, you can’t always have it the way you want it if the law is different than what you want.
Thompson: Yeah, I think we have time for one more question, and then we will wrap up today. So I want to end on a bit of a fun question, because being governor is a hard job. You’re always on duty when you step foot out of those grounds of the governor’s mansion, wherever you go, whether it’s the grocery store, to a restaurant, you’re the governor, and people expect you to have an answer to the question. They’re not going to be shy about coming up to you. You’re going to be working late nights and trying to get bills passed through the legislature. It’s a pretty difficult job that I think not a lot of people may understand that. But I’d like to know what were some of your favorite parts of the job? What were some of the fun things about being governor?
Henry: First of all, of course the Sooners are going to win on Saturday. I mean, come on.
Williams: That’s the answer I was looking for.
(applause)
Henry: Oh, gosh. There are so many wonderful things about being governor. You know, I have to tell you, if you ask any current or former governor of any state, they will all tell you that the best job in the world is being governor. It’s just such a fabulous job. Yeah, it has plenty of headaches, plenty of challenges, plenty of frustrating moments, plenty of times you want to just pull your hair out, but you can really make a difference. You can really do good things for people. And I think the, you know, as I look back over eight years, the best thing about it was the people that I surrounded myself with, the team that I put together, and you know, just the bonding and camaraderie that we developed primarily because we had to.
I mean, you know, you get elected governor, and two months later, you’re sworn in. You don’t have much time to put together your team, and then you’re thrown into the fire. And every day there’s a new fire that pops up. That’s what I loved about it—the challenge. And I love politics and, you know, the political intrigue and maneuvering and trying to get people to come together in difficult scenarios. But every day, there’s a new challenge, and sometimes it didn’t matter what you had on your schedule.
I’m sure Governor Stitt experienced that today because he had planned to be here, and I guarantee you something came up that pulled him away. It happens all the time when you are governor. So, you may have a set schedule, but then everything just gets thrown out of whack. I think the people are the best thing. That’s what I miss the most. I miss the people. And sometimes, you know, not having to park a car, that was pretty nice too.
(laughter)
Henry: Being dropped off at the front door. Now, my biggest frustration when I go to events and things is finding a parking spot. For eight years, I had somebody drive me around, and George has a great story about first time he realized he wasn’t governor after his long period in office is when he got in the back seat of the car, and it didn’t go anywhere.
(laughter)
Nigh: I think what I enjoyed most about—well, first of all, I would say just think about when you elect a governor, the areas of the state from which our governors have come. We mentioned Henry Bellmon, he’s from Billings, and you think of Billings being in western Oklahoma? Well, it’s not. It’s north. It’s north of Oklahoma City. David Walters is the only governor in Oklahoma history who ever lived west of Oklahoma City. Every other governor is I-35 east. Also note that the mayors of Oklahoma City have a hard time being elected to anything statewide because Oklahoma City and Tulsa don’t get along, and Oklahoma City doesn’t want Tulsa running the state, and Tulsa doesn’t want Oklahoma City running the state.
But just think their congressional districts are based on population. So Frank Lucas represents basically one-half of the territory of Oklahoma. One congressman, another congressman may have three or four. But anyway, so you represent, and you serve all these areas. He’s from Pottawattamie County. Mary Fallin was from Tecumseh, Pottawatomie County. So for 16 consecutive years, the governor of Oklahoma was from Pottawattamie County.
(applause and laughter)
Nigh: But the interesting thing is that once you’re governor— Actually, when I was lieutenant governor, I started with a commitment that once a year, at least once a year, I would be in every one of the 77 counties. And my wife would say, where are you going today? Where are you going? I’ll be back. But I went to Boise City. I went to Broken Bow. I went to Tom. You know, I think we have to remember that when you become governor, you’re a governor of 77 counties. And the best thing to me about being governor was being governor of Oklahoma and what the governor also has to work on, besides all this legislation stuff, trying to take it, the image of Oklahoma worldwide. When I was lieutenant governor, the image of Oklahoma was The Grapes of Wrath. And now the image of Oklahoma worldwide is a Broadway musical called Oklahoma!
(laughter)
Nigh: Most popular musical, most popular show on Broadway in its time, set world records, was the number one song in the world. And I would go make industrial calls in Germany and China and Hong Kong or wherever it was, and they would stand up and sing “Oklahoma!” So our image is the critical part of the state of Oklahoma. When he’s calling on companies saying, open a shop in Oklahoma, bring your factory to Oklahoma, tourism, drive across Oklahoma, go down Highway 66, go up and down I-40, you know, come to Oklahoma. And that’s the end of all my speeches, anymore is to do what Rodgers and Hammerstein did for our state.
They originally, they adopted, they bought the rights to a play written by Lynn Riggs from Claremore, Oklahoma, called Away We Go. And then two New York Jews who’d never been to Oklahoma bought that play rights and put music in it and became the number one hit of the world. And they named it away, they named it a way, they named it. Oh, yeah. They changed the name several times. One of them was Away We Go. Green Grow the Lilacs was the original play. They changed it to the, and that opened in Philadelphia. They opened in Boston. They said there’s nothing exciting. The people aren’t excited to come to our play. Let’s go see Away We Go. Let’s go see Green Grow the Lilacs.
And Ridge Bond, the only Oklahoman who ever starred as Curly on Broadway in Oklahoma went to high school with me and my brothers in McAlester. Ridge Bond told me this story, that they were sitting around one day, the Rodgers and Hammerstein, and the family, and the boys. What’s the title? What should we name it? And someone, Mrs. Hammerstein spoke up and said well, name it Oklahoma. That’s what it’s all about. And someone in the room asked, back in 1943. Someone in the room asked Mrs. Hammerstein what’s exciting about Oklahoma? And you know what her answer was? Put an exclamation point after it and call it Oklahoma! The name of the state of the play on Broadway. Not the song, but the name of the Broadway show, the movie is O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A exclamation point. And so I want to end up my speech. Sorry, I have talked so long. That’s what the governors need to do. That’s what the people need to do, is what Mrs. Hammerstein told us. Put an exclamation point after it, and remember, it’s “Oklahoma!”
(applause)
Thompson: Well, I can’t think of a better way to wrap up this little party, can you? I want to give thanks to Governor Brad Henry, Governor George Nigh, let’s give them a big hand, everybody.
(applause)
Thompson: Well, Michael, that was such a fun event to be a part of. It was such a neat thing to be sitting up there with those governors, and I had a great time moderating that conversation with you, and thanks for inviting me to be a part of it.
Williams: Oh, you know, thank you for being there and showing the support for the museum and everything. It was, like I said, it was wonderful, wonderful day.
Thompson: Well, we hope you all enjoyed it, and we will talk to you soon. Bob will be back for our next podcast episode, and we will see you down the road.
(upbeat music playing)
Thompson: You’ve been listening to A Very OK Podcast, hosted by Trait Thompson and Dr. Bob Blackburn. The podcast is produced by the Oklahoma Historical Society. Visit us at okhistory.org, and find us on social media by searching for @okhistory. I encourage you to purchase a membership to OHS to help us continue our mission to collect, preserve, and share Oklahoma’s unique and fascinating history.
(upbeat music playing)
