A Very OK Podcast
Episode 34: “The Five Moons”
March 19, 2024
Episode Transcript
(upbeat music playing)
Trait Thompson: Hello, and welcome to A Very OK Podcast. My name is Trait Thompson. I’m the executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society. And here with me, as always, is Dr. Bob Blackburn. Bob, it’s March. We’re getting into some warmer weather now and getting out and enjoying ourselves. Daylight Saving Time has come back. So, when I get home from work, the sun is still actually up, and it’s nice to be talking to you again in beautiful spring weather.
Dr. Bob Blackburn: Yes, it’s good to be back, and I always enjoy this. I get to come see my friends at the History Center and get to see you and talk history with people out in the field. And I cherish that, I really do.
Thompson: Well, I wanted to tell you happy anniversary, because this month marks the three-year anniversary of when we started this podcast, and it’s hard to believe that we’ve been doing this for three years, one episode a month. We’ve skipped a couple of months here and there, but not very many of them. We have over 30 episodes out there now, and I wanted to read an email that I got recently about someone who is really complimentary of the podcast. And this is the reason we do this, is to get these stories out here. My friend Matt Payne sent me an email, and he is the grandson of William Berry. And you remember a couple of months ago we did the podcast episode about the 1965 Supreme Court scandal, and he listened to the podcast, and he sent me this. And by the way, Matt is the co-CEO of Prairie Surf Studios, the great movie studio here in Oklahoma City that’s done so many good productions like the Sylvester Stallone TV series, Tulsa King. I think they did Twisters, the sequel to the Twister movie. So Matt is a great guy, and I’ve had an opportunity to get to know him a little bit, but he said: “Trait, I just spent an hour listening to the podcast that you and Dr. Blackburn did on the Supreme Court scandal of 1965. Having grown up with that story, it meant a lot to hear you both tell it, and I’m grateful to you both for speaking so highly of my grandfather. He was a humble man, but felt strongly that this story needed to be told. So many thanks for ensuring it is hitting new ears. I love everything you guys do, and I’m always here if you need anything.” So Matt, thank you for that very kind email, and it just encapsulates why we do this. We want these stories to hit new ears, for new people to discover them, and I’m hoping that we continue to do that. But, Bob, this is why we do what we do. Right?
Blackburn: It is. And in fact, coming from Matt, that’s even more special to me because he’s made several documentaries on Oklahoma history. I’ve been a talking head. That’s how I got to know him years ago. And he’s a gifted filmmaker himself, as well as a producer and facilitating training people how to be in the movies. So he’s one of our leaders in the community, and it’s good to hear from people like him.
Thompson: Yeah, well, I want to get into our subject for today because we really do have a great one. March is Women’s History Month, and so we want to tell these stories about women who have made incredible contributions in history, but we’re talking about Oklahoma history. These women that we’re going to talk about have made an impact not only in Oklahoma but across the world. And we’re talking about the Five Moons, which are the five prima ballerinas of American Indian descent, who are from various tribes here in Oklahoma and who really did make their mark in the world of ballet and the arts. And so I’m really excited to get into this subject matter and to talk a little bit about what they’ve done here today. So the Five Moons are Maria Tallchief and Marjorie Tallchief, and both of them were Osage, Moscelyne Larkin, who is Shawnee/Peoria. And then we have, I’m going to get to it, Rosella Hightower, who is Choctaw, and then Yvonne Chouteau, who is Shawnee and Cherokee, and those are our Five Moons. And so, Bob, I think it’d be great to start off talking a little bit about why it’s so significant that we had these women of Native descent who ended up going on, you know, these women were mostly born in the ’20s and ’30s. Well, they were really born in the ’20s. And what’s going on in Oklahoma at that time, which kind of makes it, you know, their story all the more fascinating.
Blackburn: Yeah. Well, what comes to my mind is that the ’20s was a transitional period. That’s when Congress first granted a blanket citizenship to all American Indians. Now, many American Indians in Oklahoma, of course, already had citizenship and were voting members of culture. But that’s when Congress, when Americans started thinking, wait a minute, our policies with American Indians have failed. It’s been two centuries of exploitation, beating them down, telling them they need to become good little Americans, give up their Indian cultures, give up their language. And this assault on Indian culture had been going on. But that generation, born in the ’20s, still had access to their grandparents. Lawrence Hart, one of my dear friends, was born in the ’30s, a little later, but comes out of the same generation as Cheyenne, culturally, a little bit, later anyway. But that generation had access to their grandparents, who remembered the 19th century, who remember the days before allotment, remember the reservation life, and that preservation of the core culture that comes out of the nomadic way of life, the warrior culture, the matrilineal, you know, structure of families, that generation had that advantage of hearing those stories. But it also was a time when American Indians were still considered natural resources. You still see that in many museums, natural history. You’ll see the Indian story. To me, that shouldn’t be, but it is, and that’s a legacy of these days. American Indians were seen as another resource to be used, to be exploited. We see that in the movies, right now. Killers of the Flower Moon is a great example. Oklahoma, for the first three decades of the 20th century, saw American Indians as a resource to exploit. “How can we take their inheritance and move it through the economy? How can we take their oil wealth and use it to create wealth?” And so these kids born in the ’20s are dealing with both. They have the respect for the ancient ways. They’re learning some lessons to tie into their cultural strengths, but they’re also being told, you’re second-class citizens, you are here to be exploited. You know, people like Allie Reynolds, who became the great pitcher with the New York Yankees and won several games in the World Series. He was called “chief,” and that’s an expression of racism. And that was very typical in America, in the ’20s and ’30s is that American Indians were something less. They were the quiet ones at the back of the class. They were expected to give up those cultural assets that they had inherited. And so the fact that these women all come out of that culture says something about that experience. This collision of two trends in history, of survival of the ancient ways and this assault on tribal identity hits at a time when people are fighting back. The John Joseph Matthews’ of the world are writing some of the great literature in Oklahoma and American history. People like Allie Reynolds are excelling on the baseball field. You have the legacy of Jim Thorpe, near the end of his career, but still a celebrity around the world. This something coming out of Oklahoma and Indian culture in the ’20s was very special, and you see it in the lives of these five exceptional women.
Thompson: I wanted to talk a little bit— I have to admit, I have not experienced a lot of ballet in my life. In college, I saw Swan Lake, and I think that’s really the only ballet performance that I’ve seen. So I do have to, I’m going to have to fix that in my life. I’m going to have to become a little more culturally well-rounded, if you will. But I did some research about what it takes to become a prima ballerina. And just to let everybody know, prima ballerina, these are the best of the best. You can equate it to something like becoming a professional athlete in basketball or football or whatever sport it is. These are the people who have achieved the pinnacle of their particular art form. So a prima ballerina is the highest ranking female dancer in the ballet company and is often given the most prominent roles in whatever productions that they’re putting on. It means “first principal dancer“ in Italian. So here is some of the work that it takes to become a prima ballerina. You usually have to start training between five to eight years old, and you’re doing couple of classes a week. And then by the time you get into your teens, you’re doing 10 to 15 classes a week, and then you have to be in top physical shape. You have to have impeccable balance. You have to have great physical stamina. You have to dance for long periods of time. And then of course, there is intense competition. There is long hours of practice and of course, criticism. Just the slightest little flaw could keep you from becoming a prima ballerina, and you face rejection over and over again as you’re trying to perfect your craft. And so, this is one of those things that I don’t want people to think that, oh, you know, prima ballerina, what’s the big deal? It is a really, really big deal. And to illustrate that, I will say that these Five Moons that we’re talking about, these five extraordinary women, since they have retired from the from the dancing profession, and all of them now have passed away, there has not been another prima ballerina from Oklahoma produced since these five. So the fact that we’re talking about these women all born within a few years in the 1920s, and all of American Indian descent who become these prima ballerinas, and there’s been none out of Oklahoma since then, that should tell you something.
Blackburn: Yeah. And, you know, on a personal side, I love dance form. I’ve always just, I thought Fred Astaire was one of my favorite actors when I was a kid, because I wanted to dance like Fred Astaire. I never had the opportunity to do that. I played baseball instead. I went a different direction. But I’ve always appreciated dance and getting into the mind of a ballerina was an opportunity that I had here at the Historical Society. About 15 years ago, I met Jo Rowan, who is head of the dance program at OCU. She had created that dance program in the late 1970s—42 years leading that one program. Half of the Rockettes in New York City are graduates of that program. And exceptional success with teaching dancers not how to just dance, but how to make a living as a dancer in whatever direction they might go. When Jo and I became friends, I interviewed her, we did an exhibit. She donated her collections to us here at the Historical Society. We had those on display a few years ago with the collections of Yvonne Chouteau. But I learned from Jo the discipline, the tenacity to keep going when someone tells you you can’t do it, you say, “yes, I can,” and then to prove it. And Jo Rowan did that in her life. Was in Moscow with Balanchine and you know, performed with many of the greats in the in the world. Designed her own costumes. Getting to know Jo allowed me to understand what it takes to be a top flight dancer, and to have that mindset of discipline and training and tenacity and dealing with the pain because it’s a difficult art form.
Thompson: I can only imagine. And I see what just standing on your toes for that long looks incredibly painful.
Blackburn: It is. But, anyway, ballet to this day will bring a tear to my eye. Had the good fortune to give a speech for Chris Keesee in Green Mountain Falls about three or four years ago. And during the COVID, hesponsored the American Ballet Company coming in and practicing and performing there when they could not perform anywhere in New York City. And I got to see a performance with probably 50 people around the American Ballet, and literally twice during that, just tears rolling down my cheeks. It’s a very expressive art form, and there’s so much to it. And the fact that those five ballerinas from Oklahoma, from Indian culture, from Oklahoma at a time when we were still considered the wild, wild West and a colonial economy with just producing commodities in the middle of nowhere, not on the way to anywhere else, until Route 66, which comes in the ’20s. But it’s an amazing story coming out of Oklahoma, one that should be celebrated. Fortunately, you can see it at the State Capitol with Mark Larsen’s wonderful painting of the five ballerinas. You can see it on the back of a quarter, when they were honored there. Their names should be repeated often, and I really respect you for wanting to bring this up as a topic in a podcast because it’s something that everyone should be aware of and say, I didn’t know anything about them. I’m going to find out. Hopefully people will pursue that.
Thompson: Yeah, and I hope people will be inspired by their stories and inspired by their work in the arts. One of the things that I wanted to also talk about was the name the Five Moons, and where did that come from? And that actually comes from a composition from Cherokee composer Louis Ballard Sr. He composed a ballet called The Four Moons, and this was performed in 1957 and 1967 to celebrate the 50th and 60th anniversary of Oklahoma statehood. And so, the four ballerinas, Marjorie Tallchief, Yvonne Chouteau, Moscelyne Larkin, and Rosella Hightower performed as the Four Moons. Maria Tallchief had already retired by that point, and she didn’t want to perform anymore, but that is where that moniker comes from of the Five Moons is from that that composition at the Oklahoma Indian Ballerina Festival 1957 and 1967. That’s where they get their nickname, the Five Moons.
Blackburn: You know, a little fate of history here. It was also in the ’50s when movie makers, convert the stage play Oklahoma! into the movie that we all celebrate, and that wonderful scene that is ballet that in her memory, Laurey’s memory. Here are these dancers on stage in the beauty of the ballet. And every Oklahoman has grown up watching that, either on the stage, numerous times. I don’t know how many productions I’ve seen of Oklahoma! has to be a dozen or more. But then watching that movie over and over and that ballet scene and the emotion that comes out of it. All there in the ’50s, when those ladies would have come back to Oklahoma to celebrate their careers.
Thompson: Right, right. Well, let’s get into talking a little bit about each one of them. And, let’s just start out with Moscelyne Larkin. As I mentioned before, she’s Shawnee/Peoria. She was born in Miami, Oklahoma, in 1925. And her mother trained her in ballet until mid-teenage years, and then she traveled to New York to study under artists like Mikhail Mordkin, Anatole Vilzak-Shollar. You’ll have to forgive me for some of my pronunciations here. And Vincenzo Celli. And at 15, she joined, she joined the original ballet Russe. And this was a ballet that many of the Five Moons joined as they started to come of age. This was called, I have my notes here about this one because I did look it up. It’s called the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo. And this was a ballet company founded in Monte Carlo in 1932. It was under the direction of Colonel W. de Basil, and it brought audiences new compositions, and it divided into new competitive companies in 1938. And so this is where many of our Five Moons either got their start or spent a considerable amount of time in this particular ballet company. And so, Moscelyne Larkin joined the Ballet Russe in Monte Carlo in 1948. She danced many of the leading roles, and then she was featured as the prima ballerina at Radio City Music Hall in New York, which is no small feat. And then she went on to form the Tulsa Civic Ballet School, now called the Tulsa Ballet Theater, and she passed away in 2012.
Blackburn: And I bet among our listeners, especially in the Tulsa area, there are going to be many women probably about my age who studied with her in Tulsa. So you think of her impact on the community, not just creating the art form itself, but being an advocate. And it’s not easy being an advocate for the arts in a community that supports very little publicly. But the people of Tulsa felt that that was important. She fit in and led that effort and changed the lives of many Oklahomans by giving them that opportunity to study what they loved.
Thompson: We’re going to talk in more detail here in a few minutes about Maria and Marjorie Tallchief with Russ Tallchief, who is their great-nephew. But Maria Tallchief was born in 1925 in Fairfax, Oklahoma, and her great-grandfather was Peter Bigheart, who negotiated with the US government in 1906 concerning the oil reserves, which made the tribe wealthy. And of course, she was born, both of them were born, Maria was born in ’25 and, Marjorie was born in ’26 during the Osage “Reign of Terror.” And so that did have an impact on them. And they ended up moving to California to continue their training in dance in the arts. She also began training with the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, and then, in 1944, George Balanchine, the great Russian choreographer, joined the ballet, and they ended up getting married in 1946. She established her reputation with a ballet called The Firebird. And she became the prima ballerina, and that was really the high point of her career. And then, she was, in 1954, she was the highest paid prima ballerina at the time, making $2,000 a week. And she went on to serve as the director of Chicago’s Lyric Opera Ballet and the Chicago City Ballet. And she lived in Chicago for the rest of her life, although she did come back often to Oklahoma and to the Osage Reservation. She died in 2013. Moving on, Marjorie Tallchief, also Osage. She was born in Denver, but she, of course, was raised in Fairfax, Oklahoma. In kind of a similar story, ended up moving other places to get her ballet training. She was the first American Indian to become première danseuse étoile in the Paris Opera. And she married George Skibine, who was a ballet master and choreographer, in 1947, in Vichy, France. And then she, after her career, she served as the director of dance for the Chicago City Ballet. Rosella Hightower, who was Choctaw, born in Durwood, Oklahoma in 1920. When she was five years old, her father got a job with the Katy Railroad, Missouri, Kansas and Texas Railway, and moved the family to Kansas City. And then she began training with a local teacher, Dorothy Perkins, and later studied in New York with Michel Fokine, Anatole Vilsack, and Alexandra Fedorova. In 1938, she began her professional career performing with several companies, including the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo. I had to put a little, you know, put a little fun on that.
Blackburn: A little west-Texas accent there. (laughs)
Thompson: The original Ballet Russes from 1945 to ’47, the Grand Ballet du Marquis de Cuevas in 1947 to 1953, and the American Ballet Theatre from 1955 to 1957. In 1962, she founded the Center for Classical Dance, a school in Cannes, France, which was modeled after her own ideas of multi-disciplinary training, and then she was later the director of the Marseilles Opera Ballet in France and the director of the Ballet of Paris Opera in the 1980s. She died in 2008, in Cannes, France. And then the last of the Five Moons, Yvonne Chouteau, who was Shawnee and Cherokee, was born in Fort Worth, Texas. She was the only child of Colonel Corbett Edward and Lucy Arnett Chouteau. Here’s a fun fact about her. She is the great-great-great granddaughter of Major Jean Pierre Chouteau, who established Oklahoma’s oldest white settlement at the present site of Salina in 1796. And of course, we have exhibits here at the History Center on the Chouteaus. They were traders, and they were involved in early, early territory that became Indian Territory and then later the state of Oklahoma. But they were involved early, early in the late 1700s in settlements there. In 1943, Chouteau joined the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, and she was the youngest dancer ever accepted, dancing with the company for 14 years. She worked with master choreographers including George Balanchine, Leonide Massine, Antony Tudor, Agnes de Mille, and Bronislava Nijinska. She married Miguel Terekhov, a principal dancer with the Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, and they ended up having two children, and she is the one who organized the Oklahoma City Civic Ballet, which they ran for ten years. I love a quote from Yvonne that I found in my research, and it says, “The Indian soul is very expressive,” and she said “it has a great sensitivity,” and “anyone who goes into art is going to have to be sensitive to be able to interpret the folkloric tales of ballet.” And I think that really plays into, you know, I think one of the things that we appreciate so much about Native American culture is their closeness to the land, their closeness to each other as a people. That they are in tune with what’s going on in the world just in terms of they’re in tune with the rhythms of nature. And I think that what she’s saying here in this is that this is what makes us good artists. That we’re connected and that we are good at expressing that connectivity through art. She also had another quote that said, “The Indian people are very artistic as a whole. We are also very non-verbal. So I think dance is a perfect expression of the Indian soul.”
Blackburn: Well, and you can see that too in the 21st century now with different Indian artists expressing different things. It’s not just what the market demanded. You know, you come out of the 1920s and the Kiowa Five and that era of flat Indian art that sold well and so many Indian honors, until the 1960s, were expected to paint in that style because that’s what the market would bear. But then you get a generation of American Indians, artists like Mike Larsen and others who, Allan Houser, who branch out and really express their own feelings, and you see that in their art form. You see it in dance as well as literature as well as through art. And to me, it’s part of the ongoing story of American Indians in Oklahoma in the changes that we’ve seen over the last 150 years and we’ll continue to see in the future.
Thompson: You know, I would encourage everybody to go out. You can go on YouTube and you can find some clips of these incredible ballerinas dancing, and they are graceful, and they are, you can just tell, even with an untrained eye, such as my own, you can tell that they are exceptional at what they do, and we can talk about ballet all day long. But I think really, you have to see it and you have to experience it. And so I would encourage everyone out there to go search on YouTube and see if you can find some of these clips out there of these incredible performers dancing and, you mentioned it before, but in 1997, all of the Five Moons were named Oklahoma Cultural Treasures. And in 1991, we get an incredible, incredible painting, a mural at the State Capitol by Chickasaw artist Mike Larsen. And when you’re standing in the rotunda and looking up at this mural, you can see it from the fourth-floor rotunda. And the mural is called Flight of Spirit. And it doesn’t look that big when you are standing on the fourth floor of the rotunda and looking up at it, but it’s 22 feet long and 10 feet tall, so it’s rather large. And this mural pays tribute to the the Five Moons, and it has some symbology in it. It merges the tragic history of the Native Americans with the hope and renewal of modern accomplishments. So, behind the ballerinas, you can see that there are five geese soaring over them, which represents the grace and spirit that is required to be a ballerina. There is a depiction of the Trail of Tears in this particular piece of art. And he depicts the ballerinas in representational form. In other words, you’re not going to look up and say, oh, that’s Yvonne Choteau, that’s Rosella Hightower, but they are depicted as being sort of one of a piece of the landscape and imagery up there, of being the Five Moons as kind of one team, one group of people, and it is a beautiful mural. I do tours of the Capitol very often, and, in fact, I’m doing another one this afternoon for Leadership Ponca City. So I’ll get to see my friends from Ponca City in the Capitol later today. But I’m always asked about that mural, and I always love to have a chance to explain who the Five Moons were and what they did and what they accomplished. And this mural was dedicated on November 17, 1991, and it was the only time all five of the prima ballerinas were together in one place.
Blackburn: And, you know, it’s fitting it’s Women’s Heritage Month. That painting, that mural would not be there, of course, without Mike Larsen, but would not be there without Betty Price.
Thompson: That’s right.
Blackburn: Long-time director of the Arts Council, a great friend of mine and a mentor to me in many ways, how to deal with with the politics of the State Capitol as an agency director. But Betty Price wanted that. She was an artist herself, expressing herself through painting, but she wanted that story told, and she and Mike were good friends. She knew Mike was the artist who should do that. And so Betty Price deserves a shout out, too. We just lost Betty recently, a memorial service still to be planned, but we need to remember Betty and other women like her who have done so much for art appreciation in the state.
Thompson: Well, Marjorie Tallchief was the last of the Five Moons to pass away. She passed in at the end of 2021. And Brandy McDonnell of The Oklahoman, I remember I was on a trip to Colorado for our SHAM conference, and Brandy called me and let me know that she had passed and asked me for a quote to put in the paper about her passing. And it was the end of an era when she passed away. These five women represented a time of, I mean, groundbreaking I don’t think even begins to cover it, because for what they accomplished and what they were able to do. So I hope the story of the Five Moons will inspire some other artists out there. If you’re involved in dance or performance, you know, these women who grew up in, of course, different circumstances but all of Native descent and really overcame a lot to become the best of the best in their particular field and people that we still talk about today. And so I hope that this inspires some people out there, and I hope this inspires you to go look up some more information about them when our dear listeners, have a time, a chance to do that. But now I want to talk to a guest that we have. And as I mentioned, Russ Tallchief is is the great-nephew of Maria and Marjorie, and I can’t wait to hear what he’s got to say about his famous great-aunts. Well, Bob, I am excited to welcome as our guest into the podcast, Russ Tallchief. Let me tell you a little bit about who Russ is. He’s an Osage writer, director, actor, and dancer. He currently serves as the content manager for Wahzhazhe Communications at the Osage Nation. As an arts writer and advocate, he has devoted much of his professional life to creating opportunities for Indigenous artists, from organizing art exhibitions and performances, to writing articles and producing his own plays. As a writer, he has served as art galleries editor for Native Peoples Magazine from 2000 to 2015, and currently he is writing a biography chronicling the lives of his great-aunts, the world renowned ballerinas Marjorie and Maria Tallchief. He has taught college writing at Oklahoma State University, Rose State College, and Oklahoma City Community College. Tallchief’s theater practice emphasizes Indigenous storytelling, including his original play The Chainsaw Artist, which he produced and directed with the support of the Osage Nation Foundation. As a dancer, Tallchief has danced throughout the United States and Paris, and was featured in the touring exhibition of Dance: American Art 1830 to 1960, curated by the Detroit Institute of Arts. He also danced in the film Killers of the Flower Moon, directed by Martin Scorsese and starring Lily Gladstone, Leonardo DiCaprio, and Robert de Niro, and he served as tail dancer for the Grayhorse Committee of the Osage I’n-lon-schka ceremonies for nearly two decades. Russ, we are really excited to welcome you into the podcast today.
Russ Tallchief: I’m honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Blackburn: Trait, before we get into the conversation, I always like to add a little personal angle, especially when I know someone. I was with Russ on one of the most important days of his life. It was at I’n-lon-schka, and he became the drumkeeper for the Grayhorse District. And I was there that night and witnessed the ceremony of the transfer of the drum and, Historical Society, through the White Hair Memorial, was a supporter. We give a financial gift for the for the meals. And I had one of the best times in my life with— his dad and I were good friends. Tim served with us here on developing the History Center exhibits. But Russ, that was a very memorable night for me that just like it happened last night, and for you, I know that was one of the important days in your life.
Tallchief: Yes. Probably one of the most important days of my personal life, my cultural life, my family life, every part of my life was impacted by that moment that we shared with you. And I was so glad to have you there. Becoming drumkeeper is historic, just in and of itself, and it is one of the highest honors that you can achieve or receive in the Osage Nation ceremonials that we call the I’n-lon-schka. And the drumkeepers, there are three drumkeepers. So each district has a drumkeeper. So we have Grayhorse, which is my district (Pahsoolee), and then Hominy (Zonzohlee), and then Pawhuska (Wahakoli). And so each district has a drumkeeper, and the drumkeepers host the dances, and they form a committee. And the committee is made up of elders, committee men, waterboys, tail dancers, advisors, cooks, and everybody in the community has some kind of a role in hosting the dances. And so the drumkeeper is essentially the host family of that district. And so it was really a special day and very unexpected day for me, I had no idea that that was coming. And so it was really neat to have you there for that really big surprise.
Thompson: Russ, I, since you mentioned it in your biography, and as we’re recording this podcast, we’re just a few days off of the big Oscars ceremony where Killers of the Flower Moon was nominated for, I think, 10 Oscars and unfortunately didn’t win any awards. But one of the things that the world got to see was those incredible Osage dancers and performers as part of the nomination for Best Original Song. Can you talk a little bit about the the whole process, like, going through to get this movie made, and how important it was that the Osage played such a big part in helping to tell this story and to get it right? And what it’s done for the Osage Nation?
Tallchief: Well, seeing our singers and dancers at the Oscars was moving for me and for everyone, I think, who witnessed it. Even non-Osages have commented on how moving that was, and we had our drumkeepers there as well, and we had some tail dancers that danced as part of that. And then, of course our singers. Scott George wrote that song “Wahzhazhe (A Song for My People).” And then the singers that were around that drum are the same singers that are at our I’n-lon-Schkas every year, and a lot of them are singing all over every weekend at different gatherings, powwows, celebrations. And so for us to have that representation at the Oscars means so much. And it represents our survival, our perseverance, it represents our sovereignty. And we had the best representation that we could from our people there. And I was so proud of them. And even though we didn’t win an award, this is much bigger than a trophy. This is so much bigger, because we came together as a community to make this film. This wasn’t an objective, just sort of documentary about us. We were involved from the very beginning. And Martin Scorsese came and met with Chief Geoffrey Standing Bear and then also met with community members and hired community members on all levels of the film, in front of the camera and behind the camera, and in and around everywhere: costumes, wardrobes, sets, you name it. There were Osages involved in telling the story, so we have ownership in it, and we helped to tell this story. It was important for us to be involved and to help tell it accurately. And so we had consultants that were involved every step of the way to say, yes, this works or no, this doesn’t really work. And then there are also story consultants, of course, and David Grann’s book laid a really beautiful foundation that the film was built upon. Of course, the film is a work of art, so it has parameters and unique perspectives on the story that is a very small part of what the story is about, which is a period in our history when, it was a decade or so of just absolute terror on the reservation. And so the film is, I think it’s one of those things that you have to view from the perspective of a cinematic representation. It’s a dramatization of just some people, a few people, that were impacted by this. But we were all impacted by it in different ways. And so it’s part of a much bigger story that we encourage folks to learn about, if they’re interested to learn a little bit more, because of course, the film can’t tell everything.
Thompson: Right.
Tallchief: And so, the book can’t tell everything. I mean, it’s just a huge story. So we encourage folks to read about it and come visit us and just get to know the broader story, so that they can appreciate where we are today, and what we went through to get to where we are today.
Thompson: Well, this movie is going to live on for a long time. I know, you know, it’s probably cycled in the center of the limelight, maybe fading a little bit, but people are going to be discovering this movie for a long, long time. And it was so exciting to see the performance at the Oscars. It was, it kind of gave me chills just watching it and seeing, you know, how this story has been portrayed on the world stage.
Tallchief: Just an Osage song, an Indigenous song from Oklahoma was nominated for an Oscar. I mean, that is a victory.
Thompson: Absolutely.
Tallchief: That is a victory in and of itself. And that says a lot about the folks at the Academy and the folks that are voting, that they value Indigenous music and that we have just one instrument, right? We’ve got a drum. (laughs) And then our beautiful singers, and that’s it. It’s very simple. And the melodies are simple. They carry such weight with such simplicity. And the words are simple too, just stand up, be proud. Wa-kon-da has created this for us. And I think that we all felt that pride on Sunday. It was, and we felt it all along, all the way through. And it really, it doesn’t matter that we didn’t win an award. I mean it’s disappointing, but Lily Gladstone has claimed her space as a star. She has carved out a place for herself in Hollywood, and she is always going to be a star. And I think that at some point she will win an Oscar. But if you look at the awards that she did take home.
Thompson: Yeah, she was very successful.
Tallchief: They are plentiful. And much to be proud about and just to receive ten nominations is something to be proud about. I mean, we received ten nominations! So, I feel like that there are some folks that are disappointed out there, and I am too. But I think that we have to also remember what we accomplished and how we got here and what exactly we have done, which has created a space for Native people in Hollywood, both cinematically, in front of the camera, behind the camera. There were careers that were launched as a result of this film, and folks that you may never see. I have a cousin who’s now in the wardrobe business, and he stays busy working on costumes and wardrobes for films, and he had no experience in that prior to the film, and now it’s in his career, and that is across the board. So many people are coming out of this experience with a new life and a new career and a new appreciation for being Osage. And what I think I’ve seen that’s also particularly powerful as a result of the film is people, Osages who are wanting to come home. And these are Osages that may have never lived here or maybe been in Oklahoma, but just not culturally connected, and they’re starting to find an appreciation for who they are. And I say, come on home, right? Come on home. And this is your culture, these are your people, this is your history, and so come on home. I feel like that we can look at our language class enrollment increase. We can look at the cultural interest increase, and we can look at a lot of these things that are proving that we are having a resurgence of folks that are coming home, as well as visitors that want to come and learn more, and we welcome that. And we ask people to respect when they come here, and respect our space and our traditions and cultures. And we actually have materials online on our website. And then we also have hard copies available too at our visitor center for folks to come and pick up to find out where to go visit, tourist destinations and also where not to go. Right? I mean, we have certain places that we want people to respect, respectfully, stay away from.
Thompson: Right.
Tallchief: And so that is helpful for folks that want to come and learn more. And so they should go to our website and they can find all of that material.
Blackburn: Russ, you know, you were talking about what people can learn if they will stop and listen and respect. And what we saw on the stage at the Oscars was an expression of of who the Osage are, doing it through the drum, doing it through the songs and through the dance. And that makes a nice transition into our topic today, which is the Five Moons, the five ballerinas. And as among all of the tribes, dance has always been a way to express yourselves. Either before a hunt or a celebration or a giveaway or whatever it might be. A lot of non-Indians think of powwows, of course, that’s a fairly modern form of expression. It’s its own art form. But it’s so different from Indigenous cultural expression through the dance that we see in so many tribes. But you see it among the Osage especially and the very powerful people unified, expressing their culture. Louis Burns is the one who is my cultural guide through that whole process over the years, a great Osage historian and writer. But talk about your experiences with dance and what the five ballerinas might have meant to you growing up. The sense of pride in your own tribe and then a member of your tribe and sharing your family name and being recognized around the world as a prima ballerina. That had to have been part of your cultural legacy, from your dad, Tim, and your aunts and uncles and cousins and all of that.
Tallchief: Yeah, we’re a dancing people, and we’ve danced lots of different styles. The I’n-lon-schka is our old southern straight style of dance, and Maria and Marjorie grew up with that. As young children, they went to our dances. And that is part of, I think, the rhythm that they carried with them throughout their careers as they went into ballet. There was this musicality that Maria and Marjorie had that was rooted in traditional music, as well as classical music, and it was that fusion that made them so unique, in addition to coming from Oklahoma, from Fairfax, Oklahoma, a tiny little town on the Osage reservation, and moving in to the world stage of ballet and carrying those roots with them. It was visible to folks. They could see something that was unique in Maria and Marjorie, which was just being Osage, having a physicality of strength and power, an innate sense of rhythm. And then this classical musical training that allowed them to embody the music in a way that set them apart from other dancers. And I remember Maria talking about meeting Balanchine, who was also a musician and played piano. And in fact, when they were married, they had two pianos in their house, or apartment, in New York, and they would play together. So Maria says she was a little better pianist than George Balanchine. Maria studied, and in fact, that’s the direction she was headed originally was to become a concert pianist, but she said that what she saw in Balanchine was the music in motion, the music personified through dance and through bodies. And she said she saw the music, right, in his choreography. She could see the music moving. And I think that that is what brought them together in an artistic way and helped them to create this historic moment in American ballet history. When Maria Tallchief became America’s first prima ballerina, America was not even on the world stage at that time. It was dominated by the Russians and Europeans, and Marjorie was over in Paris as an etoile with the Paris Opera Ballet. And so she and George Skibine, her husband, were the artistic directors of that ballet for years. And so she was the first American to become an etoile with the Paris Opera Ballet. And so Marjorie was forging her own path in Europe, where ballet was dominated by Russians and Europeans, and Americans were changing their names to sound more Russian and trying to fit in. And Maria and Marjorie never did that.
Thompson: Yeah, they wanted Maria to change her name to “Tallchieva.” Correct? So it sounded more Russian. And I found a quote in The New York Times for Marjorie where she said, “Actually, my father made me promise that I would never change my name. And I suddenly remembered when I was leaving and he said, you promise you’ll never change your name? And I said, yes. So I never did.”
Tallchief: Yes, and that was very common for Americans to change their names, and having an American Indian name, such a strong identifiably Osage name as Tallchief, made that choice even bolder I think, because American Indians were still struggling in the United States when you consider the 1930s and the ’40s. American Indians were still struggling with the federal government and with reservation status, with a lot of legal wrangling that was happening throughout the 20th century. And during that period, it was it was still very much the Wild West in a lot of ways. And Killers of the Flower Moon illustrates that how, even as sophisticated as things seemed to be in the 1920s, there was still a lot of lawlessness that was able to exist and coexist with that here, and people trying to separate us from our oil rights and from our money. And it was on a institutional level and on a governmental level, like everyone was involved in that. And Maria and Marjorie were born right in the middle of the “Reign of Terror.” So Maria was born in ’25, and then Marjorie the following year. And so they were in the middle of all of this. Marjorie said that she remembers sleeping with their parents in the Tallchief mansion on the hill, we call it the mansion. There’s this terracotta, beautiful building that is still there and in need of some renovation, and which the nation is going to start at some point. And we want to preserve their childhood home that they were in up until the ’30s when they moved to California. And I don’t think that they would have had the same careers had they stayed here. There was not enough training for them here. There weren’t enough teachers that could give them the kind of training that Ruth, their mother, and Alex, their father, wanted for them. And so many Osages have already been out to California. There were already a lot of Osages there, and so they were in good company out there. It wasn’t completely out of the ordinary for Osages to relocate to LA in that area in Orange County, and they just happened to land in Beverly Hills and went to school there. So, you have to imagine this family coming from Fairfax, a tiny little town in the middle of this period of absolute chaos, and then relocating to Beverly Hills and going to Beverly Hills schools, graduating from Beverly Hills High School, the 90210 of the ’40s and what that must have been like, and it’s pretty cool. I reached out to the Beverly Hills Library and got their yearbooks and was able to see Maria and Marjorie’s yearbooks, and also Jerry, their brother, went out there, and so they went to school for most of their elementary, junior high and high school out there. And so their childhood was spent here in their formative years, and their childhood home is being deeded to the nation. It’s in the process of being deeded so that we can turn into a an Osage Nation facility of some sort, I think a boutique museum type space, programming space. I’d love to see a dance studio up there, like a living, breathing space for the community to use. And so I think that will happen pretty soon too. But you got to figure that Maria and Marjorie were coming out of a really difficult childhood. They say money can’t buy happiness, right? I mean, yes, there was a lot of money flowing, but folks were in fear for their lives.
Thompson: Yeah.
Tallchief: I mean, when you when you put the value of life and money side by side, then you got to imagine that folks fearing for their lives saw much more value in living than having that money.
Blackburn: Russ, you know, when we’re talking about the 1920s and early ’30s, one advantage they did have though is that they still had access to some of the elders of the tribe who were there before allotment, before the reservation was disbanded— at least the surface rights, of course, kept the mineral rights. But having that advantage of being around grandparents and aunts and uncles who knew the old ways, who could share. John Joseph Matthews shares that so well with all of his writings. And, you know, in listening to the little people, you know, the elders of the family. That generation of American Indians had an advantage of still having access to that. And much of that was lost with, you know, with funerals throughout the decades. But, you know, you and I would give anything to go back and talk to our ancestors who lived in the 19th century in different ways. But that would have been an advantage for them where they really got to see their culture and hear. And of course, the relationship among Indian people in general, but Osages specifically, that connection between grandparents and grandchildren and the multiple generations was a powerful force in their lives.
Tallchief: Yes. And Maria and Marjorie came back regularly, and in fact Maria brought George Balanchine to Fairfax. Did you know that? You know, George Balanchine was in Fairfax, and he loved animals. And so Maria took him to this farm, and there’s this picture of George Balanchine holding this pig. You may have seen it, that’s in Fairfax. And he’s wearing this bracelet that Helen Robertson gave him. And Helen, when he came to visit, he was admiring some of the turquoise and silver jewelry that cousin Helen Robertson was wearing. And Helen was a cousin to Maria and Marjorie’s, and her father was Eves Tallchief who was my great-grandfather. And so Helen went down and bought George Balanchine a bracelet and gave it to him. And he loved it so much that Maria said he wore it almost every day of his life. And even when she went to visit him in the hospital in his final days, he was wearing that bracelet, she said. And so George Balanchine loved Fairfax, and Marjorie’s husband, Georges Skibine, also loved Oklahoma in general. Both of them said that Oklahoma kind of reminded them of Russia, and particularly Georgia, and the landscape and just the lifestyle and things like that. And so they felt a connection to Oklahoma besides just being married into the Osage Nation. And so Maria and Marjorie, although they were, they spent their lives on the road and in the dance studio, and they did come back and were able to learn, continue to learn, and to share what they had learned. And then now, Elise Paschen, Maria’s daughter is very engaged in our community, and we talk regularly. She just left on Monday and was here for sovereignty events in celebration of Osage Nation Sovereignty Day. We had, of course, the Oscar watch party. We had a hand game. We’ve got a powwow coming up, and so we’re celebrating sovereignty right now. And so Elise is taking language classes, and her children are getting involved, and so the legacy continues, and it’s wonderful to see Maria and Marjorie’s family, their descendants, engaged in the community because they were, of course, raised all over the place. Right? I mean, Marjorie’s boys, Alex and George Skibine were born in Paris, right? They like they lived their first 14 or so years of their lives in Paris. And I think that’s really cool. I think that’s so cool that we have French-speaking Osages, George and Alex still, you know, they’re fluent in French as well as English. And I think that’s so neat. We’ve had a really strong relationship with the French for hundreds of years, so it’s kind of neat to see that continue just in a different sort of a way.
Thompson: I wanted to ask about the process of becoming a prima ballerina, because these are, equate them to the top athletes in the world. It’s an incredible amount of work. It’s a lot of practice. It’s a lot of dedication. Obviously, you have to have the talent for it, but talent only takes you so far. What do you think motivated Marjorie and Maria to achieve that next level and to become prima ballerinas? Because, you know, there are a lot of people who have tried who have never succeeded. What do you think was that driving factor for them?
Tallchief: I think that perfectionism drove both Maria and Marjorie more than achieving some title or position, because I don’t think that either of them ever had their sights set on achieving the pinnacle of ballet, which is a prima ballerina in Maria’s case, and and an etoile in Marjorie’s case, which is basically like the prima ballerina of Paris. But in Maria’s personal and professional archives, there is a quote repeated time and time again on different sheets of paper, on flash cards, in letters, handwritten and typed. And it’s Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” And I think that Maria was a perfectionist. I think Marjorie was a perfectionist, and that was their goal, which of course is, that’s about as high a goal as you can have, right? Because we’re humans, and I think that dancers have to have a certain level of perfectionism. Otherwise the repetition of rehearsals would drive a normal person mad, right? And so I think that that was what drove them more than trying to achieve anything, because the United States didn’t have much ballet happening at that time. So I don’t think that Maria saw there was a vacant spot as the first prima ballerina in America and went for it. You know, I think she was in the right place at the right time. And as Marjorie has said, and as you said, talent can take you so far, being in the right place at the right time is also important, but it’s the work that you put into getting there that makes the difference, that sets these dancers apart from any other dancer. It’s the work, the hard work and the discipline, day in and day out. No days off that got them to where they were.
Blackburn: I mean Russ, I think a key part of that was pride, of course, one where we all have pride, we want to perform, we want to do our best. And I think I have seen that in Osage people over the years. I’ve been working with the Osage now since 1990, when I was put in charge of the White Hair Memorial and working with a number of Osages over the years, including your dad and yourself. But I’ve always sensed that pride. We are Osage, and if you, at I’n-lon-schka, you can sense the pride. It’s carried in just the way people move and the way they act and the respect. I think that they had that Osage pride as well as the self-discipline that any individual has. But I think the Osage culture comes out in that pride. And I see that. John Joseph Matthews, I’ve already mentioned, he’s one of my favorite writers in all of Oklahoma history. I put him number one in terms of talent, and he had that pride. He had that pride in his ancestors and his family members and expressed it through words. I think Marjorie and Maria expressed that pride that they had at being Osage.
Tallchief: Yes. I think there is an innate sense of pride that you can see among Osage people that is also rooted in humility, because originally, our original ancestors called themselves “little ones” out of humility and out of a sense of place in the cosmos, of a small part of a much bigger story and a small part of Wakonda’s creation. And so I think that there has to be that balance, right? There’s a balance between humility and pride. And I think both of them, they are innate, I think. I think that we have an inherent sense of both of those, and I think that we’ve also earned both of those. I think that we’ve earned a sense of pride and humility, and I think that Maria and Marjorie earned their spots. So they earned a sense of pride that built upon this inherent Osage pride that they had because they had to earn their spots. They were not just bestowed upon them because they were in the right place at the right time. They had to earn that spot, and against many odds as Americans, as American Indians in the ballet world, they were up against a lot of odds and yet, they achieved the highest levels of success that a dancer can achieve in ballet. And so I think that there’s a pride that comes from that as well, that they have pride that they earned, on top of just being proud of being Osage and being proud of the fact that we have our traditions. And that’s not the case across Indian country. We’ve lost so much as Indian people over the years, and so we’re very proud of what we’ve been able to maintain through our ceremony, through our songs, through our traditions, through things like hand games and family gatherings. I think that there’s always something going on here in Osage County and throughout the Osage Nation that keeps our traditions alive. You know, that keeps us going. There’s always something happening, and that’s also part of the work. You know, you have to work. You gotta work hard to keep traditions alive and keep our language alive and taking language classes and teaching language. It’s a lot of hard work to be Osage, and so we do it willingly and with pride. And so I think that is where some of that pride comes from.
Thompson: Russ, can you talk a little bit, both women were incredibly successful when they were performing, but they also left legacies after they retired from performing. Can you talk about some of the things that they did after their dancing careers were over?
Tallchief: Well, Maria went to Chicago, and she helped form the Chicago Lyric Opera Ballet and taught there for many years. And Marjorie also taught there for a while. Marjorie and George Skibine started the Dallas Ballet, and they were down there up until the early ’80s. And when George Skibine passed away, then Marjorie moved, to— well, she was teaching in Florida, and then she was also helping Maria in Chicago for part of that time. So the dancers down in Dallas all scattered in different directions. And there are a lot of dancers down there in Dallas that are well connected and get together regularly and have really wonderful memories of Marjorie and George. Even though the Dallas Ballet didn’t really survive after that, but the schools did. So Maria has the Chicago Lyric Opera Ballet that is still active and still honors Maria’s memory, and Marjorie has her work there in Dallas as well as at the HARID Conservatory. And she was teaching down in Florida in the Boca Raton area. And, then, of course, you have the other members of Five Moons, right? Because there were five Native Indigenous women that came out of Oklahoma. And so Yvonne Chouteau, whom Maria adored, helped start the University of Oklahoma School of Dance with her husband, Miguel Terekhov, and then Moscelyne Larkin and her husband Roman Jasinski started the Tulsa Ballet, and they still carry on their legacy through amazing performances. Of course, Yvonne was also a part of the formation of what is now Oklahoma City Ballet as well. But I think that all of the dancers inform these schools in some way or another because Rosella Hightower, her school was in France, and so she spent much of her time, especially post-dance, there, and did come back for the dedication of Mike Larsen’s mural at the Capitol that beautiful Flight of Spirit mural. And I don’t know that she ever came back, but I think that might have been the last time that all five of those women got together and were able to stand side by side.
Thompson: Yeah, according to...
Tallchief: Their legacies are very much alive.
Thompson: According to what I read, it was the only time all five of them were together was for that painting dedication. Now you had, we spoke on the phone the other day, and I just got a kick out of a story that you told about Megan Mullally. And was it Marjorie who kind of discovered Megan Mullally? Or you can correct me on that, but she took dance lessons, correct?
Tallchief: Yes. She was taking dance at the genesis of what became Oklahoma City Ballet. It’s had numerous names over the years. And so in their first company, Maria helped adjudicate the auditions. And Maria picked out Megan Mullally before she even danced. And the folks that were hosting the auditions said, well, she hasn’t been dancing very long. (laughing) I think she was about 16. I mean, she was a teenager or so at the time, and they said, “Well, don’t you want to see her dance first?” And Maria said, “No, I can tell by the way she walks in that she’s going to be a dancer.” And so Megan Mullally was cast in one of the first companies that became Oklahoma City Ballet without even auditioning. And she did, according to everyone involved, Megan Mullally was an amazing dancer before she ever became an actress. And of course, I don’t know about you, but I can spot a dancer from a mile away. You know, there’s just something in the way that they carry themselves, that they hold themselves, the way that they move, that says, okay, this person has had some ballet training, and it’s a poise, and it goes all the way back to the training from Russia, from the oldest trainers, the oldest teachers in the history of ballet. Right? Which, Marjorie talks about how Nijinska, her teacher out in California said that whenever you stand and wait for a bus at the bus stop, you stand like a ballerina. Whenever you sleep, you sleep like a ballerina. And she would not allow them to slouch ever or lean on the bar. They had to always be a ballerina. And I think that that’s one of the things that dancers carry with them, whether they go into professional dance or not, that training stays with them forever, and I love that. And I saw Megan Mullally, and when she and Nick published their book, they came into town, and they did a book signing. And so we got to hear a little bit about that, and I took my daughter, Zoe. My wife was at Oklahoma City Ballet at the time, and we took some swag to the event, and Zoe gave it to Megan, who was thrilled. And then Nick ended up picking Megan up and doing this pretty beautiful lift. (laughs) And I don’t know if they practiced that at some point, but it was pretty good. They looked really beautiful and had a lot of fun with them because they’re just fun people. Right.
Thompson: Who knew Ron Swanson could be so light on his feet? And I assure you, Russ, I cannot spot a dancer from a mile away. That is a talent I do not possess. But I appreciate that you can for sure. Well, it’s certainly been so nice talking to you. Thank you for joining us to recount these memories of Marjorie and Maria Tallchief and talk about their accomplishments and what they mean to the Osage Nation. And it’s just been such a pleasure hearing from you about them today in.
Blackburn: And Russ, thank you for all you’ve done, cultural preservation and expression through art. And you’re carrying on the family tradition. Your dad did it before you. You’re doing it. And I hope to see your children someday expressing that Osage pride and culture the way you have.
Tallchief: Thank you, and it’s an honor for me. And it’s always thrilling whenever I get change at the store, and I get a quarter with Maria Tallchief on the back, right? They’re in circulation, and I put some of them in circulation accidentally. When I did laundry at a laundromat, Maria Tallchief quarters, which I did not mean to do, but hey, I’m helping spread the word.
Thompson: There you go.
Tallchief: So remember, whenever you flip a coin, call tails.
Thompson: Yes, exactly. All right. Well, Russell, thank you so much. It’s been great to talk to you, and I hope you have a great day.
Blackburn: Thank you.
Tallchief: Thank you, you too.
Thompson: Bob, I enjoyed hearing Russ talk so much. It’s just, his passion comes through not only about his famous great aunts, which is fantastic, but his passion for the Osage people and the culture, the passion for dance and the work that he does. I just enjoyed that conversation a lot.
Blackburn: Well, I’ve known Russ for over 20 years and knew his dad before that, Tim Tallchief. And I respect Geoffrey Standing Bear for bringing Russ into the circle of leadership among the Osage people. It’s such a rich culture and strong people, and I respect Osage people so much. And Russ is doing a great job, and he’s so articulate and a storyteller of the best traditions of Oklahoma, Indian and non-Indian. But Russ can tell a story, and I appreciated him coming on and joining us.
Thompson: Well, Bob, happy three-year anniversary again. And I’ll look forward to when we get to talk again soon.
Blackburn: All right. Thanks, Trait.
(upbeat music playing)
Thompson: You’ve been listening to A Very OK Podcast, hosted by Trait Thompson and Dr. Bob Blackburn. The podcast is produced by the Oklahoma Historical Society. Visit us at okhistory.org, and find us on social media by searching for an @okhistory. I encourage you to purchase a membership to us to help us continue our mission to collect, preserve, and share Oklahoma’s unique and fascinating history.
(upbeat music playing)
