A Very OK Podcast
Episode 46: “A New State Flag”
April 15, 2025
Episode Transcript
(upbeat music playing)
Trait Thompson: Hello and welcome to A Very OK Podcast. My name is Trait Thompson. I’m the executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society. And here with me as always is Dr. Bob Blackburn. Bob, it is great to see you again. It is April in Oklahoma, which means here recently, we have had thunderstorms and tornadoes and some snow. So you never know what you’re going to get this time of year in our great state.
Dr. Bob Blackburn: Well, I woke up this morning and having breakfast with Debbie, we just planted a new Japanese maple outside of our breakfast nook window. And it’s all leafed out. We have about 15 Japanese maples around the place. They’re looking beautiful right now. The bridal wreath is out. The snowball is blooming. Everything is just looking gorgeous. We have a patch of creeping phlox that just knocks your eyes out, and it’s just so bright. So it’s loving this cool weather and the rain and, in fact I’ll be doing some gardening this afternoon.
Thompson: Fantastic. Yes, we’ve been doing a little bit of gardening ourselves. We got, we have a beautiful Japanese maple in our front yard. And I love every year when it leaves out. And, you know, speaking of springtime and flowers and trees and everything, I have to mention that Brian Dougherty was on last time as our guest, and you and Brian had a great book signing recently at Full Circle Books. And it looked like you had a great crowd over there.
Blackburn: We did. I probably, I would guess 50 to 75 people. Sold some books. And we talked for a little while, and just, I like being with Brian. He brings a different perspective. You know, I’m the historian—context, politics, social change, political leaders. But he can talk about what trees worked and what horticulturalist said, “let’s do canas.” You know, he brings the plant world into this conversation of parks and beautification in the cities that I enjoy it so much. So it’s been great to work with him. And he’s a real asset to Oklahoma.
Thompson: Well, and I have to ask you some of your tricks of the trade on book signing, because I’ve had the one book come out a couple of years ago about the State Capitol. And, as people are in those book signing lines, I always recognize people I know. And I feel like that I can’t just do the standard, you know, best wishes and sign my name. You feel like you have to write something a little bit personal, but it’s also right there in the moment. You have to try to think of something. How do you do that? Because I know you signed a lot of books in your day.
Blackburn: Well, my problem anymore isn’t so much the personal notes, but it’s remembering names. Someone who I’ve known for 40 years. Oh hey, Bob, you know, sign this to me and my husband. And I was like, now you’re, your name is spelled a little differently. Spell it for me. You know, and I kind of walk around.
Thompson: I love that.
Blackburn: But that’s the yeah, that’s the difficult part. Yeah. And then you don’t remember all these names.
Thompson: In the book signing line, you can’t just write it ’to buddy, to partner.’
Blackburn: Yeah, that is difficult. But, Kirkpatrick Publishing Company that published this book had Brian and I signed 800 book markers where if you’re not there to get one signed, you can pick one up. When the OHS is selling them, they’ll have a stack of those. Someone can take one of those, put it in and they’ve got a signed book. So it took us four hours to sign all of those. So don’t want to do that again. But that was one way they did it. So everyone can have a signature in their book.
Thompson: There you go. Tricks of the trade behind the scenes on how you sign your book. I want to bring into the conversation someone who’s been on our podcast before in our state parks episode and did does such a great job for the office. He our state historian. He is Dr. Matthew Pearce. And, Matt, is so great to have you with us again here today. You may be our first repeat guest. I’d have to go back and check.
Dr. Matthew Pearce: Well, if that’s the case, then I am honored. It’s great to be back, as always. Have me as many times as you want me, so happy to speak with you all today.
Thompson: Matt, you might just mention a few of the things that you work on on your role here as the state historian.
Pearce: Yeah, it’s been interesting now since I’ve been in the position for a little over a year. So, you know, one of my main things is, I guess, one of my main programs is the Historical Marker Program. We’re coming up on our spring deadline for that program. So if folks out there listening, they want to get an application in, that deadline is May 15th. Also coordinate The Encyclopedia of Oklahoma History and Culture. Work on that with Dianna Everett. And we have several entries, they’re getting ready to to be published. Just got another entry in the other day that I’m editing right now, so, and then, you know, since we had the subject for today’s episode on the state flag with that centennial, I’ve been doing quite a bit of research on the state flag. I feel like I can talk about that subject in my sleep at this point.
Thompson: Well, that’s why you’re here, to talk with us about that subject. And as Dr. Pearce mentioned, this is, this year is the 100th anniversary of the adoption of the Oklahoma state flag. And actually, April 2, 1925, the flag was officially adopted with the signature of Governor Martin Trapp. But the story of how we get to that moment happening is a pretty fascinating story, and we had a great event here at the History Center on April 2, which was the 100th anniversary of the state flag being adopted. And we had such great guests. We had, Lieutenant Governor Matt Pinnell was with us. We had the chief of the Osage Nation, Geoffrey Standing Bear was with us. Sue Allen from the Daughters of the American Revolution, Nancy Williams from the Centenarian Society. And maybe one of the most popular things we had was cake, and a lot of it, to celebrate. How do you have a 100th birthday celebration without a bunch of cake? And, we had great attendance. I’d say a couple hundred people at least showed up for this event. Oh, and I can’t forget we had a wonderful choir of students from Oklahoma City University who sung our state song, “Oklahoma!” And everybody joined in. So it was a wonderful event. And I was really, really pleased at how it all went off.
Blackburn: Well it was a high quality production. And I especially like the video that you two did, It was well edited, well lit. I thought your comments were complementary and I would guess what, 10 minutes, maybe 8 to 10?
Thompson: Yeah, about about 8.5 minutes.
Blackburn: So that would have been my guess. But it was just the right length. And hopefully it’ll be online so people can find that after this they hear this podcast.
Thompson: Yes, it actually is online. It’s on our Oklahoma Historical Society YouTube channel. So after you listen to this podcast, you can go watch it. And I do have to give a shout out to Cruz Pulido, who is our videographer, and also usually is the editor of this podcast. Today, Jason Bondy is filling in, and Jason always does a great job. But, Cruz is a relatively new addition to the office, and he has already made his mark. And this is his first, I would say, kind of big production to do for us. And this is something that we’ve wanted to do at the OHS for a while. And I’m really, really glad that we are moving in that direction now.
Pearce: Yeah, I think he, I thought he did a fantastic job.
Thompson: And I thought we sounded really smart on there, Matt.
Pearce: And that’s all Cruz, you’re right. He picked the good part.
Blackburn: Good editing. Yeah that’s right.
Thompson: That’s exactly right.
Pearce: That’s the purpose of a good editor.
Thompson: Well let’s jump into this this topic here today. And I really want to start out by talking about, you know, we’re talking about 1925. But the 1920s in Oklahoma is a really fascinating time. It’s a time of change in our state particularly we are growing up out of this sort of maybe a dusty frontier state when Oklahoma and Indian Territory were joined together in 1907. It feels like by the 1920s, we’re starting to figure out how we get along with each other and how we are one state where we’re growing by leaps and bounds. In fact, the population of Tulsa in 1920 was 72,000 people, which had quadrupled since 1910, and the population of Oklahoma City was 91,000, which had increased by 42% since 1910. So we are a state that is growing by leaps and bounds, and we are wanting to make our mark. And the flag is one way we are going to do that. Bob, I think it’d be great if you could give us a little bit of context about this wild and wooly place, because it is, there is a lot going on in Oklahoma in the 1920s.
Blackburn: Well, it really is. And I always like to start with the transportation, because that is such a big part of economic development, social structure. And the period from 1900 to 1910 was really the age of building railroads in Oklahoma. There were more miles of track laid in that one 10-year period than all other decades combined. So we go from being isolated towns, having isolated towns across the state, with almost insular populations, where there you still have a mom and pop general stores where they’re, they’re trading, you know, goods for butter and cream that they can get to market somewhere. But these railroads make all the difference. So this is the beginning of urban growth, not just Oklahoma City in Tulsa, but in towns like Chickasha and Ponca City and Elk City, Atoka. And railroads are connecting Oklahomans with the rest of the world. Well, as that’s happening, the economy is booming for for really three reasons: one, the value of land. After a general allotment, after five years of homesteading with all of the land openings and public lands to the west, and for five years they could borrow money against it. So money begins to flow into people’s pockets because they could actually have some land, some wealth to say, okay, I want a $200 loan to put in another crop, build a barn, to buy a new buggy, then a new car. And so that’s beginning to change. And then you throw on top of the agricultural boom, you throw the oil and gas, mainly natural gas was largely a byproduct, but oil at least, the first big field, 1905. But by the ’20s you start getting a major strike almost everywhere every year. In the ’20s, the two biggest ones would have been the Seminole Field and Oklahoma City Field. So from ’23 to ’28, you get those two that are bigger than all the others combined. And so oil is flowing through these communities, creating jobs, drawing people, and the population is growing because of that. But it’s also a time of social change. It, there’s no, it’s no accident that this is the age of the Ku Klux Klan in Oklahoma. It was not so much to put Black people back in their place as they would have said, because they were in their place already. We had a segregated community, had been that way, de facto even before statehood. Then was statehood. It was in written in statute, and it was in people’s hearts as well as minds of the law. So we had a segregated community, but we had the All-Black towns that were prospering. Boley in the 1920s grows to 5,000 people. And so in the cities within a city here in Oklahoma City, Deep Deuce, and in Tulsa, Greenwood, are growing. And even in Tulsa. Despite the Tulsa Race Massacre in 1921, it recovers quickly. And I’m so glad they called the museum over there Greenwood Rising because it really did rise back and recover. And people still were flocking because they had the jobs, they had the communities, they had the things people want. And so you have this social change, and then you have things like movies coming into these little movie theaters that are built in almost every little town with the morals of Hollywood in New York City or even Paris. Shocking. You know, these evangelical Christians who are in these little towns. And so suddenly you get this, this reaction to social change, to economic change. And the Ku Klux Klan is really a reactive organization. They don’t want the immoral movies coming in, and they don’t want Catholics moving into their communities. There was as much animosity towards Catholics as there would have been against African Americans at the time. So it’s a period of division to me. I still think we’re in this transition period, but American Indians are still considered a natural resource to be exploited by most Oklahomans at the time.
Thompson: Yeah.
Blackburn: Our first senator, US senator, our first governor, both were part of taking land away from American Indians and feeling good about it and bragging about it. Oklahoma City is being built by people moving here after accumulating wealth, especially in the Muscogee
Creek: Nation. And but other Indian nations. Osage somewhat. But there you have a little different system, but there’s a lot of wealth that’s coming up by exploiting American Indians. And not until the ’30s that we start really beginning to change that attitude. It’s still there in Oklahoma today, though, in 2025, just as there is racism against African Americans. But it’s all changing and it’s a turbulent time period. And beyond the economic and social changes we get the political chaos of the age. This is a decade and early in the decade when two governors are impeached and removed from office. We’ve had others impeached, but only twice have we had a governor removed from office. And it’s this time period, 1923. Again, in 1927. And so you get, these changes politically. Oklahomans are a little schizophrenic. Who are we going to elect? We elect kind of a street brawler, street corner politician like Jack Walton, who had been mayor of Oklahoma City, had been just kind of a ward heeler, old time politician. He would have fit right in with Tammany Hall in in New York, but he is elected governor on a plank and messes it up almost immediately.
Thompson: Very populist, very populist.
Blackburn: Bumps up against the the capitalists. The bankers bumps up against the Ku Klux Klan, bumps up against almost everybody else. And within one year, he is removed from office. Same thing what happened to Henry Johnson. Henry was not so much doing the bad things, but as Irvin Hurst, I got to know him. Old time historian, newspaper journalist, who actually interviewed Henry Johnston in the 1920s. And he was alive when I came around the Capitol in the in the ’70s. And I said, what was his real crime? He was incompetent. And he just couldn’t handle things. It was too complicated. He had been really a territorial kind of politician. Just happened to be the only one running when he was elected. And this is the age though of a political leader that I actually studied quite a bit in grade school under LeRoy Fischer’s guidance, wrote an article about Martin Trapp, the governor no one had ever heard of, and Martin Trapp had been lieutenant governor. He was a businessman in selling bonds, oil and gas, real estate, just kind of a front tier business person, typical Oklahoman. But he had strong ties to the business community, and no one even knew what the lieutenant governor did at the time. Theoretically, he presided over the Senate, but the Senate would kick out the lieutenant governor if they tried to really preside. They didn’t want the interloper there. And so he didn’t have an office, much less a staff. So he was out doing business. Well, suddenly he is there on the scene when Jack Walton is impeached in 1923, becomes governor, has almost three years, maybe more than three years.
Thompson: And tried to make the case that he wasn’t the real governor so that he could run for reelection. And the Supreme Court said no.
Blackburn: Exactly. And that’s why Henry Johnston was elected, because at the last minute, he’s kicked out of the race because he was so popular. But he is the governor who looks at this chaos and this change. But he comes up with some changes, some reforms that work. One was he wanted a more modern, efficient transportation system. And so, for four years, Oklahoma could have received matching grants from the federal government to build highways rather than just stopping at county lines. And so we couldn’t even get into that race because we had no fun. We didn’t have a highway department with the professional engineers. Trapp said, we’ve got to change that. He became the good roads governor. That was his reputation. Legislature responded, and they created what we now call ODOT in 1923 with the first tax on goods at the state level at least. And that was for gasoline. So I think it was two and a half cents a gallon. And that would go into a fund split 60/40; 60, the state, 40% to county commissioners. That’s why we have Route 66 Centennial coming up. All of that started with Martin Trapp. He also saw a problem with law enforcement. This is an age when law enforcement was at the county level or in as a county subunit. City governments could have their own police force, but largely was that county law. And they were being outgunned out and driven in outlaws’ cars. And they wanted to do something. But the county commissioners are so strong, he had to compromise. And Martin Trapp and the legislature compromised big by creating what we now call OSBI, Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. And with limited powers, they had to be asked by a sheriff to come into their county. But it was another way to look at the state as a whole, rather than these little micro units of counties and cities. And of course, settlement patterns had been a patchwork quilt of differences anyway. That made Oklahoma a difficult place to govern. And here he starts coming up, no it wouldn’t be until 1937 that E. W. Marland gets a bill passed to create the Highway Patrol, which was a real uniform police organization. But Martin Trapp saw that coming. And so Martin, was a professional. He was smart. He knew how to work with others, had good connections, and he got a lot done and helped change the state as it’s going through all of these transformations and changes, growth. And we would remain the fastest growing state in the nation until 1930.
Thompson: I would have to think that if you were going to make a list of Oklahoma’s good governors throughout history, Martin Trapp would be somewhat near the top, if maybe not at the top, for how he carried himself out, particularly coming off the chaos that Jack Walton had caused in his very, very short tenure in the office. Matt, one of the other things that is happening at this particular time in history, and this will have a definite impact. It this has definite relation to what we want to talk about today. But during the 1920s, you have the Osage reign of terror.
Matt: Yeah. That’s right. And not just what’s going on with, on the Osage reservation, but also, swindling of Muscogee
Creeks:, Cherokees, any allotments that had potential leases for oil. And so you have guardians, many of whom are under, you know, have questionable intent, who are, you know, looking to acquire those oil leases and get those mineral rights and oil leases. So, yeah, that’s happening throughout, you know, in the Osage Nation also, throughout northeast Oklahoma at the time because, you mentioned the explosive growth of a city like Tulsa. I mean, that’s largely because of the oil industry. And then same thing, the opening of the of the Oklahoma City oil field as well. All the, you know, petroleum is driving all of this growing growth, and also exploitation of Native lands.
Thompson: So let’s go back in our talk about the flag, and let’s go back to the very beginning, because interestingly enough, at the Constitutional Convention, Matt, there is no mention of creating a flag. And you would think that if that would have been something important to them, they would have done it at the Constitutional Convention, because they did everything at the Constitutional Convention, including a description of how the state seal was to look, the flash point of kerosene. So they threw everything in the kitchen sink into the Constitution, but not a flag. You know, talk about that a little bit.
Pearce: And that’s somewhat interesting, because this is at the same time that there are other states that are starting to adopt state flags. This is early 20th century, the Progressive Era. And so a number of states are starting to adopt flags and developing flag codes for their respective state flags, and also for the US flag. The Pledge of Allegiance, I think, was written in 1892. And so this is also at the same time that you’re starting to see some normalization of how people are supposed to salute the US flag with the Pledge of Allegiance. And because, of course, this is the Progressive Era, so, you know, you mentioned how Oklahoma itself is it is changing rapidly. I mean, that’s just a microcosm of what’s going on across the United States with industrialization, with immigration. And so this is a period when states in the nation as a whole is attempting to define what does it mean to be an American? What does it mean to be an Oklahoman? And what are our symbols that help convey that meaning? And so, but interestingly enough, at the Constitutional Convention in 1907, there’s no discussion of of how to adopt a state flag. There is, the year after the Constitutional Convention, Governor Haskell commissions a group of almost 100 women to come to Guthrie and sew the 46 star flag that would be, per tradition at the time, when a new state was added to the union, a new US flag with the appropriate number of stars would fly over Independence Hall in Philadelphia at that next 4th of July. And so, in preparation for those fest festivities, Governor Haskell gets this group together to sew a new flag. And of course, then gets sent off to to Independence Hall and, flies on July 4, you know, 1908. And then Governor Haskell, you know, sent notices statewide to when, you know, when that happened on July 4, that, you know, people throughout their respective communities, Oklahoma would gather and and recognize the moment as well. But, yeah, it took a few years before there was an actual concerted effort to develop a state flag for Oklahoma.
Thompson: This is a pretty interesting story. And while it doesn’t relate directly to the creation of the Oklahoma state flag, as I was doing my research into this, I found this to be pretty fascinating because there was a request sent by officials at the city of Philadelphia for Oklahoma to get together and sew this flag, so Governor Haskell invites 92 women from 20 cities across the state to meet at the Carnegie Library in Guthrie, and each one of them was to sew on a star. Of course, we have a new 46 star flag. So one star on each side. And that flag was to be transported to Philadelphia and flown over the Independence Hall on July the 4th. And at the same time, folks from the Betsy Ross Association in Philadelphia are making their own 46 star flag. And these two flags were exchanged. So after the July 4th holiday, we brought back the flag that was sewn by the Betsy Ross Association. The flag that we had made here in Oklahoma stayed with the archives at Independence Hall, which I believe are still in those archives.
Pearce: I think so, because I know there was, there was a scare after the sinking of the USS Oklahoma because, in 1941, I believe it was flying a 46 star flag at the time. And I remember reading some newspapers where there was concern that when the USS Oklahoma was sunk, that that flag was the original 46 star flag and went down with the ship. Turns out that wasn’t the case. It was a manufactured flag. And the original is, they found the original was still in the archives at Independence Hall.
Thompson: And part of the technology of the time, the people in Philadelphia associated with Independence Hall, they wanted Oklahoma and the people gathered in Independence Hall to gather together and to sing the national anthem all at one time. So this ceremony was at noon on July the 4th, which would have been 11:00 here in Oklahoma. And the minute that the flag was hoisted up, they were going to start singing and they pressed the button, which sent a telegraphic signal to Oklahoma, which let everyone know here gathered that they were supposed to start singing “The Star Spangled Banner.” So I find this so interesting just because it’s a mix of 1920s, sorry, 1908 technology with this idea that we want to all be together at one time as a country and singing the national anthem together. And one of the things that Governor Haskell said is, let our first 4th of July in the state of Oklahoma be long remembered as one devoted to the expressions of loyalty and patriotism. And it wasn’t until a woman named Ruth Clement comes on the scene that we start even thinking about our own Oklahoma version of our own flag. And, Matt, I know you’ve done quite a bit of research into Ruth Clement. You want to tell us a little bit about who she was?
Pearce: Yeah, I think, I, I’m finding her story very interesting. Of course, and we’ll be talking about her later, Louise Fluke. Of course, we know quite a bit about Louise Fluke and and her role with the current state flag, but I’ve, you know, in doing this research, you know, Ruth Clement and the first state flag, the 46 flag, is kind of seen as it’s overlooked. It’s seen as this kind of oddity in Oklahoma history and and then kind of just continue to do some digging and found out that there really wasn’t a whole lot on Ruth and on her stories. So and, you know, I’ve been doing some digging and some research on her. She was born in 1873 in Kentucky. Her father was a veteran of the Confederate Army who fought in I think one of the Kentucky Mounted Regiments, and marries a physician in Kentucky and they live in Kansas for a while. He had, her husband, had a practice in Marquette, Kansas, for a time. And then they find their way, to Oklahoma, around 1904 or 1905. Interestingly enough, her husband, William, had two older sisters, both of whom married brothers of future Oklahoma governor Lee Cruce. They’re all in that same region of Kentucky. And then, you know, the Cruces of course, they came to Indian Territory and got their start in Ardmore, with their law firm and so forth prior to Lee’s election. And I think that’s kind of how, Ruth and William Clement found their way to Oklahoma as well was through those connect, those family connections that they had developed. And ultimately, William sets up a practice in Oklahoma City. And and Ruth is is really much, really involved with a number of, of women’s civic organizations. She’s active in, when they moved Oklahoma City, she’s active in the Oklahoma City Federation of Women’s Clubs. She’s active, notably with her father being a Confederate veteran, she becomes a leading figure in the in the state division for the Daughters of the Confederacy. when she’s designing the state flag. And in 1910, 1911, that’s when she’s serving as president of the of the state division. And then also ultimately becomes a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution. And there’s a number of other, civic groups that, that she’s a part of. I think she’s emblematic of, you know, especially the role of women in women’s roles in defining patriotism, citizenship and their role in developing, state symbols. So but she’s, so she’s very much active. And I think because of her, you know, haven’t, you know, found the, you know, the, the piece of correspondence sort of thing that really confirmed this. But I think it’s because of her families, her extended family’s, her in-law’s connections with, Lee Cruce, I think that gave her the, the avenue to, you know, to speak to those to develop, you know, some sort of state flag for Oklahoma in 1911.
Thompson: It doesn’t seem to have been something that was particularly celebrated. In 1911, the third legislature adopted the new flag with Senate Concurrent Resolution number 25 on March 2, 1911. And Joseph Thoburn later said this design was adopted with no opposition and a manifest lack of enthusiasm during the legislative session of 1911. Bob, you want to tell us who Joseph Thoburn was?
Blackburn: Oh, Joseph Thoburn is one of my heroes because he was an early executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society, wrote the first textbook on Oklahoma history in 1907. Started with the Chamber of Commerce, really the transition from a merchants association to a real chamber of commerce in 1898, he was there as the secretary of that, working with Anton Classen and C. J. Gristmill Jones and a few others. But Thoburn was a journalist by training, a community leader by just temperament and ability, and later, did some of the first archaeology in the state at Spiro, what we now call Spiro Mounds. Helped draft the law that protects those sites from exploitation. But he was he was a really good man. And we have an award named after Joseph Thoburn. I got to work with his daughter and son in law in establishing that years ago. But I have a theory why it was not popular at the time and, you know, if we think about our own identities as we grow up, typically as a young person, you know, identify with a geographical place, mainly your city. So, you know, you’re in Chickasha, you’re in Claremore, or you’re in Oklahoma City or whatever. But in terms of grasping the concept of this political unit that has political boundaries. So when you fly over an airplane, well, where are the boundaries? You know, there’s just no way to comprehend what really is is so not until your 20s and 30s and and then later patriotism grows because you have that identity and shared memory. But in the 1910s, there are almost no second-generation Oklahomans. People would still say, I am a Kentuckian. I am from Illinois, I am from Missouri. They would identify with the places that they had come from and most Oklahomans other than American Indians and many African Americans who had come with them especially as slaves, really don’t have this identity. Oh, they’re part of something greater. And so they bring that heritage. And because I work with genealogical groups now for almost 50 years and pull them in to the historical society. One time it was kind of a, an antecedent, antagonistic relationship between the genealogical community and the former people who ran the Historical Society at one point. We’re bringing that in. You have to bring in their pride in Kentucky and their pride in Ohio and their pride and where they came from. I don’t think we had much of a concept that we were Oklahomans by that time, and that would come another generation. People would grow up here and finally say, yeah, yeah, I am a native of Chickasha, but, you know, Oklahoma too. And there’s and I’ve shared memories of what’s happening in the state to to really develop that. So I think it was too early to really generate a flag like what Matt said about this new patriotism in the country. I always, when I gave a speech about it, I always say, well, look at Theodore Roosevelt. He sent this white Navy around the world and people were so patriotic and proud of it. We had won a war against a European power, the Spaniards, in 1898. And suddenly there’s patriotism, along with our industrial might, just creates this American patriotism that you see with Theodore Roosevelt and why he just love so much, because he embodied that. That was Theodore Roosevelt. He didn’t have to act. He loved the country. He loved the Navy. He loved the American spirit. But here in Oklahoma, it was premature. And people don’t realize how young the state is. And so many of the issues are dealing with with the legislature, things, you know, when people ask me to try to explain something, I usually start with youth and settlement patterns. We all came from a different place, bring in different cultural baggage, different worldviews. And I don’t think they were ready to say there is one symbol that represents who we are, and that really wouldn’t come until the 1920s.
Thompson: Yeah, the red flag. It really, and I don’t know that we described what the flag was that Ruth Clement designed, but it was a flag with a red field. It had a white star in the middle, and in the middle of the white star, outlined in blue was the number 46, which basically meant Oklahoma was the 46th state. And later on in 1927, Mrs. Andrew Hickam, who was the state regent of the Daughters of the American Revolution, said this flag unfortunately expressed nothing of the sentiment or historical significance of Oklahoma and never made a successful appeal to the popular interest in the state. It had often been dubbed the red flag of sedition, and with Oklahoma taking the lead in the financial as well as the intellectual world, it was not to our best interest to go marching to the front, waving a red flag. And that speaks of what else is going on in the 1920s, which is this, in 1917, you have the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. You have many, especially in the northwestern part, were embracing socialism, Matt.
Pearce: Yeah, and I think, to piggyback a bit off of of Bob’s comment earlier, there’s a generational divide going on here, too, because especially if you think of Ruth Clement and Louise Fluke, you know, Ruth comes to Oklahoma, before statehood comes here in about 1904. You know, has a husband, daughter. She’s caring for her widowed mother by that point. Compare that with Louise Fluke, who comes to Oklahoma, I believe, She’s born in 1900 and comes in 1901. So grows up in the state. And and then also, you know, and then to to get to your comment grows up during the war, the First World War and then with the aftermath of that, with the Red Scare and then the Roaring 1920s. And so, you know, with, with the US participation in the First World War, I mean, that’s really in Oklahoma, I mean, you had, you know, some participation in Oklahoma with the Spanish-American War, with your participation, the Rough Riders unit. But really, the First World War is is a chance for Oklahomans to you know, announce, you know, to can pronounce their presence on the national stage and say, yes, we can contribute to this larger national cause. And so you know, you have many Oklahomans who, for the first time and for the first and perhaps only time, that they travel overseas, to fight in Europe. They’re exposed to, you know, to what’s going on over there. You have Oklahomans who are staying here on the home front or supporting the war through their various ways, whether it’s growing wheat or victory gardens and all those other things. And so you have this kind of, you know, this collective effort on behalf of, of a cause that’s larger than themselves. And then the backlash against that, especially with the with the Russian Revolution and organized labor and and so forth. So, you know, with, after the war, of course, the United States had mobilized its economy to support the war effort. And then after the war, they’d done so in part to and made some concessions with organized labor, say, hey, yes, we recognize some of the things that you want, but we really need to win this conflict and we’ll address these other things about working conditions and wages and so forth. We’ll address those, those after the war. Well, you know, organized labor held them to, to that. And so you have massive strikes happening in 1919. You have a coal, you know, the coal miners strike in southeastern Oklahoma, for instance. And, and the backlash against that, because basically anything that was that, you know, was any effort along those lines was seen as associated with with communism and socialism, given the context of the Russian Revolution. And so you see this, backlash against, you know, anything perceived as as radical, and even to the point that in 1919, the state legislature enacted a law forbidding the waving of a red flag if it was, for, I believe, treasonous activities. However, they defined that, and I think it’s only been, I think, enforced once. I think during an anti-Vietnam War protest in the late ’60s or early ’70s. But of course, that legislation is passed in 1919, and you could look at cities across the country, and they’re doing similar ordinances and in those sort of things. So essentially the perception of anything radical as red, definitely reflected poorly would, would be seen as reflecting poorly on a state that’s wanting to look patriotic. And so, you know, I never saw anything in my research where the, the 46 flag is associated with organized labor or comes to be associated with socialism in Oklahoma. But that that red field, I think, you know, I think especially once we adopt a new state flag and it’s widely accepted and becomes very popular. I think that just, you know, the red 46 flag, it’s just been seen more and more just, you know, it was too red. It was it was socialist. It was too radical for what Oklahomans really wanted and what they wanted the world to see them as.
Blackburn: I just want to make this real short here. One thing adding to that, too, is that Oklahoma culture is Scots-Irish culture by the 1910s and ’20s. And even though as as, Senator Webb, James Webb, as he writes in a book about Scots-Irish culture, America may not be the majority of the population, but it’s such a strong focus culture. Others absorb it. In Oklahoma, even today, I can describe a lot of things going on in Oklahoma as Scots-Irish, and one of those is fear of distant government because of Scottish Highlanders. And then the Irishman comes out those two experiences, those Englishmen from London were the enemy and anybody coming into your valley is to be distrusted. You know, go hide your weapons. Today, don’t mess with a gun on my hip. In a fear of distance. That’s why so many Oklahoma leaders have been against the New Deal coming to Oklahoma. Murray said we don’t want it. And then you have another governor saying, we don’t want that money coming from the Obama administration. And, then against Biden’s admin, we don’t well, usually they took the money. But, you know, they they had a distrust of, well, that 46 star refers to Oklahoma’s role within the 46 states. It’s not it’s not reflecting us. It’s reflecting an external thing. And that Scots-Irish culture does not like that external. We don’t want to be part of the United States, states’ rights, which is still an issue today at the federal level, as well as state state rights as a Scots-Irish, demand almost coming out of their culture. And that’s the way Oklahomans would’ve looked at it at the time.
Thompson: And with that, we’ll take a short break.
Announcer: Join us for the Oklahoma History Symposium on Saturday, May 3, at the Oklahoma History Center in Oklahoma City. This year’s keynote speaker is award-winning Cherokee-Kiowa filmmaker Loren Waters. Loren will share insights from her powerful short documentary Meet Me at the Creek, spotlighting Rebecca Jim’s inspiring efforts to restore Tar Creek in Miami, Oklahoma. With credits on acclaimed projects such as Reservation Dogs, Fancy Dance, and Killers of the Flower Moon, Loren brings a unique perspective to storytelling that bridges history and contemporary Indigenous experiences. This event is free and open to the public. Register now at okhistory.org/symposium.
Thompson: Interestingly enough, in recent years the red flag has had a bit of a resurgence here in Oklahoma. There was a specialty license plate made in 2015 and 2016 that had the, it was a red plate that had the star in the middle with the 46. And it had our motto on it, our state motto, Labor Omnia Vincit, which means “work conquers all things.” And if you want to know the history behind that Latin saying, you can go back and listen to our podcast entitled Labor Omnia Vincit where we talk all about the labor movement in Oklahoma. But, many people, it became a very popular license plate and many people adopted it. I actually have a red Nissan Xterra and thought it would go well on that. So I adopted it early on as well. And now as people are driving around the state, you see the red license plate, which is based off of the red state flag. And, in 2017, we observed the 100th anniversary of the State Capitol, and we ordered many of these red flags because that would have been the flag in, in effect at the time. And we flew those flags over the State Capitol and there are photos out there of that happening. So the red flag is kind of had a bit of nostalgia. I think many people had forgotten that we had a flag before the blue flag. Matt.
Pearce: Yeah, no. And I think it’s it’s been really funny to see, because I mean, of course, you know, disclaimer I’m not originally from Oklahoma. I’m from Colorado originally, and so came to Oklahoma, you know, in the early 2000s. And, you know, especially seeing the renovation of the Capitol done and seeing the first state flags that are flying and similar type of you know remark for me is like huh, I didn’t realize that Oklahoma had, had a state flag before the current state flag. And so, I think it is it’s seen as an interesting episode in Oklahoma history, and it has been, has been making a, a resurgence of, of sorts. And, but I think it also, you know, to kind of again, go off of, of Bob’s comment about what it says about Oklahoma. I was giving a presentation to a group, about a month or so ago about, state flags in Oklahoma. And we were talking about the new the new license plate and someone recently, she just said she’s like, oh, so that’s that’s what the 46 means. It means 46th state. I thought, OU had a star football player with the number 46. So it kind of goes back to Bob’s comment about how, what does it say about Oklahoma? And and especially not just what it’s what it can what how we can use it to express who we are as Oklahoma’s to each other. But another purpose of a state flag is to announce kind of what a state is to its neighboring states. And so, like, if I’m going back to my, you know, home, you know, visit my parents in Colorado with that with that new license plate on, they’re going to wonder what does the 46 mean?
Thompson: You know, it’s interesting you mention that because Congresswoman Bice, who is a friend of mine and I worked with her when I was a Senate staffer over across the street, but she had asked for a little bit of history on the red state flag. And, Matt, I actually asked you to do to do that, for us. So you’ve been working on the flag.
Pearce: I’ve been working with the flag for a very long time.
Thompson: But she said that constituents were writing or calling in and saying, you know, upset because they thought the 46 met the 46th president of the United States, which is Joe Biden. And so.
(laughter): Oh, so she wanted to be able to tell them that that’s not what the 46 meant.
Blackburn: Conspiracy theories on the internet.
Thompson: And so I thought that was pretty funny. Well, let’s get into, let’s get into the selection of our current state flag, which just celebrated its 100th birthday. And Bob, your hero, Joseph Thoburn, wrote this in a Chronicles article later, he said in 1924, I took the liberty of addressing a letter to the president of the Oklahoma Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution, suggesting that the Oklahoma state flag had failed to make a successful appeal to popular appreciation and support, and with further suggestion that the Oklahoma DAR might fittingly propose a change. So, in effect, Mr. Thoburn took it upon himself to say, we need to change this.
Blackburn: He was a leader and I think he saw himself as an Oklahoman. And so when he had a chance to write that first history and then later revised it with Muriel Wright’s co-authorship, also associated with the OHS at the time. I think that he really was a patriot for Oklahoma. He showed in his career, and I think it came out in those statements you just shared.
Thompson: And Matt, the DAR seemed to take this on as a project that they wanted to do with enthusiasm. They set up a selection committee, made up of a few of their members from across the state, and then the word went out across the state for people to begin submitting their designs for a new state flag.
Pearce: Yeah, I think that goes back to, you know, the previous comment I made about the role that women played in helping define citizenship and patriotism. I mean, this is, you know, the women’s suffrage movement had been successful by this point in getting the the right to vote for women. But for for many women, this was a, you know, this through their clubs and organizations like the DAR, that was how they expressed their political activism. And that was seen as a suitable role for women at the time. And so, you know, it makes perfect sense that Thoburn would reach out to an organization like the Daughters of the American Revolution who saw themselves as the as the stewards of American patriotism and, and worked with them to organize this competition. And again, it sets up a nice contrast with, you know, everything that I’ve seen with Ruth Clements and her work, everything I’ve seen, she did it alone, like, and in terms of design in the state, the first state flag. The DAR comes in, and it’s a very different approach. And it’s as a statewide competition. It’s and so they encouraging their members to, to submit their design proposals. It’s going to be subject to a review committee. And then they’ll submit the the ones that they choose up to the, to the state legislature. So there’s there’s more buy inn I think from the, from the start, for this new state flag.
Thompson: And one of the women who takes this on as a project is an art student who was born in, or was from Shawnee, Oklahoma. She had trained at Columbia University and the Chicago Art Institute. And it’s Louise Funk Fluke. Fluke was her married name. And so she took this on as a project. And we have great oral history archives with Miss Fluke talking about how she approached this project. And if you watch the video that we talked about earlier in this podcast, you’ll get to hear her voice and in some of this in her own words. But she basically said, you know, she was intrigued by this and wanted to do the project. She was also in the process of getting married at the time, and she was hand-making her wedding dress, which I thought was great. But Bob, she goes to the Oklahoma Historical Society, which was then in the basement of the State Capitol, because our building wouldn’t be built until 1930. And she meets with Dr. Thoburn and says, you know, I’m interested in doing this. And he helps her out.
Blackburn: Yeah. He, pointed, he he liked the blue that he saw on other flags. Of course, if you think of the American flag, the blue stands out. The red and white stripes are there, but the blue is what really makes it striking. And I think a lot of Oklahomans are proud of the blue sky, you know. So he pointed at the blue colors to her. And then he really liked that Osage shield that, I think you still have that on display now. It’s been on display off and on for for decades. But he looked at that as a defensive symbol of of courage and bravery. Protecting your home, protecting your family, protecting your community. Sacrifice above self. You know, all of the symbolism that is in a defensive shield, and a shield would not have been used as an offensive weapon. It was bison hide. But it would protect. And, you know, how do we protect our land? And I think he was drawn to that and drew her attention to that. And he would have understood the meaning of that shield.
Thompson: Matt, Dr. Thoburn felt that there should be Indian symbology on the flag, because we were the Indian nation. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Pearce: Yeah, I mean, and that goes back to, you know, the merging of Oklahoma and Indian Territories and how can you develop a symbol that symbolizes what this new state is? Whereas this combination of Native peoples and settlers and the development of a state within that context. And so the Osage shield, I think, presented a good symbol. As Bob mentioned, it symbolizes defense. And then also, you know, adding on the other two main symbols that are in the flag, the olive branch and the calumet, the two symbols of peace, you know, from those respective cultures and to have those superimposed on the shield, you know, it was meant to convey, again, 1925 Oklahoma is, you know, as a state, is about a generation old at this point. And so kind of a symbolize, symbolizing the merging of the two territories and the government that that’s emerged as a result of that and the cultures that are emerging as a part of that. And so you take those three elements together. And from Thoburn’s perspective, I think, and from Fluke’s perspective, you’re starting to get a sense of what the the essence of Oklahoma is as they saw it.
Thompson: I think that one of the things that’s important and certainly was in the top of Thoburn’s mind when we were doing this is you know, Oklahoma had been a state that had been sort of shoved together. You know, many states come together almost gradually and naturally based on some natural borders. Where’s the river? Where’s the mountains? Those kinds of things. Oklahoma was always designed to be Indian Territory until the Civil War and the Reconstruction treaties. And then it becomes this repository for the Plains Indians tribes. And then there’s this hole in the middle we called the Unassigned Lands. And those were being held out for future Indian tribes to be, to be relocated there and ultimately, that wasn’t the case, because in the 1870s and ’80s, we had the Boomer Movement, where white settlers are trying to come in, and like happened in many, many occasions across the United States throughout history. After a bit of time, it was overwhelming, and the federal government finally said, okay, we’re going to open this up for settlement. And now we have Oklahoma Territory and we have Indian Territory. And Oklahoma Territory, we talked about this with Dick Morgan, on our podcast about him. He wanted Oklahoma Territory to come in by itself. The Sequoyah Convention in 1905, many in the Indian nations wanted that eastern and south central part of Oklahoma to come in as the State of Sequoyah, as an Indian state. And, of course, that was never destined to be, there were never, the federal government at that time was not going to let a state come in with four Democratic senators. So forget about that. So the Enabling Act of 1906 said, let’s shove these two territories together, where the people have very little in common and very little similar ways of doing things, but let’s shove them together and make a new territory. And so how do you represent that on a flag? You know, I feel like it’s a very daunting task to say, how are we going to represent this state that has so many different backgrounds? Bob, you talk about Scots-Irish and German and Lebanese and Native American and people that were born here, people who had never, who had only been here for a little while, and all of that heritage and all that. How do you how do you make a flag that’s going to represent that? And I think that Louise Fluke probably came up with about the best idea that you possibly could. And what I love about our flag is, and I think this is something that Thoburn suggested as well, when you crossed the shield with the calumet, which is the peace pipe, it’s the symbol of peace of our Native American brethren. When you cross it with the olive branch, which is the symbol of peace of the white man. Now it says, we’re in this together. You know, whatever happened in the past is past. Now we’re in this together. Now we are living as one society. I think it’s a brilliant design. Whereas when you may look at it at first, you don’t, you might not see that because you don’t know what’s behind the symbology there.
Blackburn: Yeah. And I think it’s appropriate that the Osage were chosen. The Osage dominated the geographical area we now call Oklahoma from really the 1720s. They started coming down out of their Ozark Plateau. And with French weaponry, and Osage are still big people. If you go to In-Lon-Schka, you’ll see six-foot-four is kind of a common height among Osage. So they were great warriors. They could run farther in a day that than a lot of soldiers could ride a horse in a day. And so they dominated this state, really for almost a hundred years, and not really until the Cherokees would come to be assigned lands in northwestern Arkansas, northeastern Oklahoma, with the Osage and devastated by the disease more than anything, rather than defeated. But the Osage always had a spirit. And if you read John Joseph Mathews and I always recommend his book just called The Osage, if anyone’s going to read any one book about Indian culture in Oklahoma, I refer them to John Joseph Mathews’ book. He captured the spirit of the Osage Nation and their sense of community and working together. It was the appropriate nation at the time. It was outside of the Five Civilized Tribes that dominates Ii you look today at gaming and politics, the Five Tribes are still dominant. The other little tribes sometimes get forgotten. Well, the Osage was one of the little tribes. They’re just a few hundred people by the time you get to statehood. But yet that that symbol of survival and defense and what they had gone through in their lives and were going through in the 1920s, as you mentioned earlier, I just think it was a brilliant stroke of genius.
Thompson: Matt, can you talk about some of the symbology on the shield, which we believe the shield was designed and owned by Black Dog II. But, it has some very interesting symbology.
Pearce: Yeah. And so especially the there’s the crosses on, on the shield that, you know, as, as Louise Fluke mentions those represent stars and and from that, you know, some folks have extrapolated from that while the stars mean, you know, striving towards a particular endeavor. And of course, the shield itself, it’s set against that, that backdrop of of sky blue, which represents Oklahoma skies and the shield itself mentioned, you know, is meant to imply that defensive warfare, so that, you know, for the perspective of Oklahoma, it’s as a state that’s always ready to defend itself and its people, but it’s never going to, you know, be on the offensive. It’s only going to, you know, it’s only going to strike, that is only going to be that defensive posture and will stand ready to defend itself. And then the calumet and the olive branch to imply the, you know, the peace between Native peoples and whites, you know, to your point mentions that, you know that, you know, these are we are all in this together. I think there’s also just but I think there’s also with that, this subtle acknowledgment of of Native peoples and whites having been, you know, they were Oklahoma Territory and Indian Territory and that and there is this coming together and, you know, this acknowledgment of of striving to make that system work.
Thompson: One of the interesting things you see when you look at the flag, of course, the crosses represent stars, but you would have to know a lot to make that assumption. It’s interesting when you look at the flag because you have these the stars on there, which look like crosses. And the Ku Klux Klan was afraid that those were Catholic symbols, and the Catholics were afraid that those crosses were KKK symbols. And so there was a little bit of mistrust about what that actually represented there in the flag. The state flag was adopted by the passage of Senate Joint Resolution Number 52. The Senate approved it on March the 12th of 1925. The House approved it on March 20, 1925, and on April 2, the governor signed it, Governor Martin Trapp. And that very day, it flew over the State Capitol. And to get into, what it says about the flag in Senate Joint Resolution 52, it says a sky blue field with a circular rawhide shield of an American Indian warrior decorated with six painted crosses on the face thereof. The lower half of the shield to be fringed with seven pendant eagle feathers and superimposed upon the face of the shield a calumet or peace pipe crossed at right angles by an olive branch, as illustrated by the design accompanying this resolution. And that was our state flag. And as Matt mentioned, we have that, blue field, which of course represents the Oklahoma sky, but also represents the values of loyalty and devotion. And now, in 1937, there was an attempt by, one of the people who was on the selection committee for the flag was Charles Barrett, who was the adjutant general of the National Guard. And there was an attempt because the flag in those days didn’t have the word Oklahoma on it. So when he is with the flag in various places, including Washington, DC, he said, people are confused. They don’t know this is the Oklahoma flag. I want Oklahoma on it somewhere. And he proposed getting rid of the shield with the calumet and the olive branch and replacing it with the state seal. And the Daughters of the American Revolution said, no, thank you, please. And, Mrs. Fred Neff, who was state regent of the DAR at that time, said there are 1,500 of us in the state and we’ll all come out here to the Capitol if it’s necessary to defeat this change, which was proposed by Senator Joe Whittaker out of Eufaula and didn’t really get anywhere. But in 1941, we add in white lettering underneath the shield, the word Oklahoma, so as to, I guess, remove any confusion.
Pearce: That would have been a compromise, I guess.
Blackburn: You know, Trait, too and in your job, and you may have already sensed this somewhat but, always heed the fact that we had an executive director in the early 1980s who got crossways with all the hereditary groups, mainly women. You know, there were male supporters, of course, but, when he got crossways with a hereditary groups, he might as well have said, hey, I’m out of here in 60 days because he was not on his own, at his own choice. And, so I witnessed that as a young editor at The Chronicles of Oklahoma. And I thought, I’m not going to make that mistake again. And so I started, of course, I was interested anyway. My mother was a United Daughters of the Confederacy and my sister’s in the DAR. And so I had known my own family members so I knew my own family history. I’d still go back four generations, but so it was a natural alliance. But they are powerful now. And they were powerful then. So I couldn’t believe that they got their way.
Thompson: Well, the story doesn’t quite end there, because on April 2, 1982, Governor George Nigh presented Louise Fluke with the Pioneer Woman Award for her efforts in creating the state flag. And then in 1982, also a woman named Delphia Warren of Muskogee, wrote the Oklahoma flag pledge, which says, “I salute the flag of the state of Oklahoma, its symbol of peace unite all people.” And so that is our Oklahoma flag pledge. The state legislature still says that when they do the pledge every Monday. That was adopted through HCR 1034 on May 19, 1982. And interestingly enough, there are still several versions of Louise Fluke’s hand-painted flags that are around. We have a couple of them here in our archives at the OHS. If you go to the Pioneer Woman Museum in Ponca City, which Ponca City is where Louise Fluke lived later in her life and was a member of the DAR chapter there. But there’s a beautiful, and it’s currently on display, there’s a beautiful rendition of one of her hand-painted flags that was given to the Ponca City Pioneer Woman Museum, which is an OHS site, in 1959. And, I certainly encourage all of you to go and see that. And as Bob mentioned, we do have that Osage shield still in our archives here at the Historical Society. It is very fragile. So we bring it out only on a few occasions. And we did bring it out for the ceremony on April 2. And, like I said, we were so, grateful to have Chief Standing Bear be a part of that, and his remarks about this occasion were so poignant. And he did thank the OHS for continuing to preserve that important piece of Osage history.
Blackburn: We loaned that shield to the new, newly opened Osage Museum about ten years ago. It was a short-term loan, but they wanted it on. And so we made that work. And I think Geoffrey has appreciated that ever since. Well, that is the story of our Oklahoma state flag. Any parting words, Matt?
Pearce: I think if there’s anything and I mentioned this in the, in the documentary, but I think one of the we were talking about how the flag, why the flag resonated the way that it did in 1925 and thereafter. I think it speaks to the importance of of having a historian there. And Joseph Thoburn and someone who was interested in doing the work of research. I mean, you, if you listen to these folks’ oral history, you’ll hear how, you know, she hopped on the streetcar, she went to the library downtown, didn’t find she was looking for, comes out to the State Capitol, to the Historical Society, and does research and to find symbols that would define Oklahoma. And as a former educator, you know, that’s always something that I find striking about that story. Here’s someone who is interested in this place and goes out to and seeks expertise and artifacts to, to help her in, in her particular project, and we we still live with the legacy of that now 100 years later.
Thompson: And Bob, it’s very gratifying to know how much of a role the OHS played in making sure that she had all of that facts and all of those research. And Dr. Thoburn was able to help guide her on that journey to point her in her direction with our historical archives and with that research, and then be able to say, to get a flag out of that at the end and to play a part in that. It’s very gratifying.
Blackburn: It is, and that kind of shows how important the Historical Society has been since 1893, when those newspapermen gathered in Kingfisher and said, we need a place to save all these newspapers that are the history of our communities, one day at a time. And then if you look at the first building built in the Capitol complex outside of the Capitol was for the Oklahoma Historical Society in 1930. And, of course, the fun that, I’m writing the history right now of the History Center, it’ll be 20 years old this fall, but I started off with the fact that it’s amazing that a small state, a low-tax state, and a difficult time in our economic development says, yeah, we’ll build a $62 million facility that’s bigger than the one in Minnesota. At the time, our operating budget was $4 million and theirs is $24 million, but we do it. Well, why we had that support all the years. I think it’s that pride that we see in the flag. It’s the fact that those stories that Matt talks about are embedded here in what we collect, preserve, and share. And I think we’re part of that, that pride that people have now to say, yeah, I’m not from Kentucky, I’m from Oklahoma. And George Nigh probably personifies that spirit better than anybody I’ve ever met. And, it’s just something that it makes me proud to be an Oklahoman.
Thompson: Well, Bob, it’s a great episode, as always. Always enjoy talking to you. Matt, thank you for being here with us today. And, I know this won’t be the last time where you talk to you.
Pearce: My pleasure. I’ll be happy to share whatever next story, whatever the next rabbit hole is, I decide to go down.
Blackburn: All right. Thank you. Matt.
Pearce: That’s my job, I think.
Thompson: Well, friends, you all have a great day, and we’ll talk to you soon. You’ve been listening to A Very OK Podcast, hosted by Trait Thompson and Dr. Bob Blackburn. The podcast is produced by the Oklahoma Historical Society. Visit us at okhistory.org and find us on social media by searching for @okhistory. I encourage you to purchase a membership to OHS to help us continue our mission to collect, preserve, and share Oklahoma’s unique and fascinating history.
(Upbeat music playing)
