A Very OK Podcast
Episode 47: “The Seminoles in Oklahoma”
May 20, 2025
Episode Transcript
(upbeat music playing)
Trait Thompson: Hello and welcome to A Very OK Podcast. My name is Trait Thompson. I’m the executive director of the Oklahoma Historical Society. And with me, as always, is Dr. Bob Blackburn. Bob is great to see you again today.
Dr. Bob Blackburn: Thank you. Trait. It’s always good to be here with you, especially in the spring when the weather is so beautiful, and it’s good to be outside and seeing everyone having a good time and being healthy.
Thompson: Yeah. It’s great. We’ve had a good run of weather with some sunshine lately. I was at Fort Gibson last weekend, and we had our Fort Gibson education days, where we had a lot of folks out there that were portraying living history, everything from the fur trade and the Sanitation Commission to Black soldiers during the Civil War. We had David Reed, one of our staffers, was showing kids how the infantry worked during the 1820s and 1830s. But it’s a beautiful day out there. But the ground was very soggy because of all the rain that we have gotten. And I walked down to the Neosho River, which was right at that point, where Colonel Arbuckle brought his Seventh Infantry soldiers in 1824 and decided to make Fort Gibson where the first fort in Indian Territory, and the river was up quite a bit. You couldn’t even see that rock shelf where they landed on over 100 years ago, or 200 years ago, I’m sorry. And, yeah, the river was up quite some ways, and, yeah, it’s been good. The legislature here is wrapping up its session right now. And, you know, most agencies are getting flat budgets, and as are we, and we actually asked for a flat budget this year because I read the writing on the wall and knew that we probably wouldn’t get that much of an increase. But I am glad, it looks like we’re going to get a $2.8 million, one-time appropriation for a new HVAC system in this building, and that will be a new chillers, new boiler, new humidity controls, a new cooling tower. As you’re well aware, because I know you’ve been working on the article about it, but this building is 20 years old. And with that, it’s time for a new climate control system in this building. And of course, you also know that we have to keep this building in the right temperature and the right humidity because we have thousands and thousands of artifacts that we have to preserve for the long term, and you have to keep those systems in the right order.
Blackburn: Yeah. You know, one thing, you mentioned Fort Gibson and one of the pleasures that I had is that when I was in graduate school at OSU, I was a consultant on historic preservation, did a research topic on where was the original fort. And we knew that it was not on the original site when the WPA built the modern stockade because the railroad went through part of the old, but no one knew for sure. So we studied maps, and we did it, and I did all these overlays well, fast forward 25 years later, Oklahoma Archeological Society. Yeah, Oklahoma Archeological Society and OU took it on to try to find the foundations of the fort, and they found them. And they go right underneath the railroad tracks there.
Thompson: Right.
Blackburn: But it was like Roman soldiers built it. It was a perfect line. I’m an old carpenter. So I got down on my hands and knees and eyeballed that thing, and it was just as straight as could be. So those soldiers knew what they were doing when they were building forts and stockades and other improvements across. And the engineers knew exactly what they were doing. Now, of course, we had to cover it up to protect it after we finished, but I’ll never forget seeing that trench in those sandstone foundations for the old stockade that were there in 1824.
Thompson: Most people don’t know, but if you were an infantry soldier in Indian Territory in the 1820s, most likely you probably never fired your gun in anger or in battle, but most likely what you did all of the time was build roads.
Blackburn: And if you and if you were dead, you probably died from disease.
Thompson: That’s right.
Blackburn: Rather than from a gunshot or an arrow.
Thompson: They didn’t call it the “Charnel House of the Prairie” for nothing.
Blackburn: That’s true.
Thompson: Well, I’m excited about our topic today, Bob, and I want to go ahead and bring our guest into here. You know, one of the things that I love covering is our Native American history in Oklahoma, because, you know, we are Oklahoma because of the tribes that either were here at first or were moved here through the Indian removal process and the chance to learn more about those tribes, I always embrace that opportunity. And, this is Jake Tiger. He is an enrolled member of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. He also has lineage of the Sac and Fox Nation and the Red Lake Ojibwe Nation. He is from the Bear Clan and from the Thomas Palmer Band of the Seminole Nation and the current band chief of the Thomas Palmer Band. He’s been employed with the Seminole Nation Historic Preservation Office for over five years now, and he serves on the Board of Directors of the Seminole Nation Museum in Wewoka. And my good friend Richard Ellwanger runs that museum and does a great job with that. His passion is in living history in the 18th and 19th centuries of the Seminole people and showcasing material culture in various museums in Oklahoma and out of state. Jake Tiger, welcome to the podcast. It is a great pleasure to have you here.
Jake Tiger: Oh thank you, Trait. I appreciate you guys for having me on. It’s a, it’s a great honor. I’ve been listening to your podcast since episode one when you first started recording, so I’m really excited for this.
Thompson: A long time fan we have here, Bob.
Blackburn: Well, I think we have one!
Thompson: That’s right! (laughter)
Thompson: We know there’s, there’s more than one. There’s at least four or five for sure. But yes, Jake, I’ve had the opportunity to get to know you over the past few years because you do great living history presentations and demonstrations and have participated in quite a few OHS events over the time that I’ve been here, as well. And, always have great conversations with you, and I love your passion for, for preserving this history, for portraying this history. And so, you know, you and I were talking, you told me, you liked the podcast so, I was like, well, we have to get Jake on the podcast because, I’m sorry to say, this doesn’t pay a lot, but maybe it gets you some notoriety in there.
Tiger: Well, it’s all, it’s all for the passion. I’m not here for the money. I just like to talk about history. It’s, it’s my passion.
Thompson: Can you talk a little bit about what you usually portray when you do living history?
Tiger: So that it really varies, especially here in, in Oklahoma, Indian Territory, I really focus on the removed Seminoles. So, you know, just this past weekend I was over at Fort Days at Fort Gibson, and I was talking about the history of the Seminoles that were there from the 1830s all the way to the 1850s, you know, telling them, you know, what the removal was like for us and, and starting new out here and, you know, talking about, you know, I was the only American Indian out there. So, you know, I didn’t want to, you know, exclude the Cherokees and the Muscogee (Creeks). I’d talk a little bit about their history, you know, just of different writings, you know, especially, you know, like Washington Irving, who came to Indian Territory in 1832. And, you know, on his book of A Tour of the Prairies, or if I’m talking about, Colonel Ethan Allen Hitchcock, or if I’m talking about Marcellus Duvall and his writings that were done at Fort Gibson. So, it really varies. And, you know, back out East, or I’ll go to places like Fort Toulouse and talk about what life was like in Alabama in the 1750s or during the time of a tree or Fort Jackson, or if I go back to Florida and talk about the Seminole Wars there, and then just the the whole broad spectrum of it. So it really kind of varies, where, depending on my environment
Thompson: And a lot of what, when you’re doing this, you’re dressed in period clothing, much of which you have made yourself, correct?
Tiger: Yes. Everything I make, except for my silver work, is all done by me. It’s all hand-sewn, it’s all researched on everything I read and trade list, everything that’s been documented through, pictures that were done by Charles Bird King or George Catlin or, you know, John McStanley, those kind of works. And so it’s just, you know, just a culmination of everything I’ve put together, you know, different writings and, and just even talking about Washington Irving when he talks about some of the Muscogees there. You know, it’s really neat to see that because we can see in writing. But then, you know, me, I want to see what it looks like in person. So I’ll start to reproduce what is, you know, what’s written down in black and white and bring out, you know, show it to the public. That’s probably the most rewarding thing about doing reproductions.
Thompson: Bob, I know that living history has been important to the OHS for many, many years. And, you know, it’s so key, especially for our young people that are getting interested in history, that it’s not just about going and getting a lecture or reading something out of the book, that they can see and touch and feel.
Blackburn: You know, our first reenactment was in 1987 at Honey Springs Battlefield. And, we recruited some American Indians because they were at the battle. In fact the majority of the soldiers were American Indian at Honey Springs. And, I’ll never forget, I was a PhD in history, head of publications at the time, not yet in administration, and the Board of Directors wanted the reenactments. So the director said, okay, Bob, you’re in charge of it. I said, what’s a reenactment? Was kind of my first question, and but learn. And then we recruited Whit Edwards. And I don’t know if you ever worked with Whit Edwards, but he was a genius in terms of living history, created the reputation for Oklahoma, because at that time, Missouri was really the leading state in the American West, west of the Mississippi, dealing with living history, Texas, probably number two. Well, we earned a reputation as the place to go for authentic reenactments, doing it the right way, keeping the farbs out. You know, the people who thought they were historic. And I do remember recruiting American Indians.
So I wish you had been around 30, 40 years ago, but you were not even a baby at that time. But, there’s a difference. A lot of American Indians look at history differently than Western Europeans. Western Europeans are used to seeing, you know, starting with Herodotus and ancient Greece is that kind of detaching yourself from it and looking at history as something that did happen. American Indians look at history as it is happening, and taking yourself out of this continuum is difficult for some American Indians, so I applaud your efforts to get beyond that to understand the importance of representing a certain time period. But I might say it’s probably easier for the Seminoles, and I’ve worked in Indian country for 40, almost 50 years now. And the Seminoles, I think, have done a better job of maintaining cultural materials, culture of the songs, the dances, the way you come together as a community, the clans, like, I think you go to the Cherokees, they don’t know what clan they are because that did not survive. Seminoles, and Muscogee (Creeks) as well, I think, are closer to that history than a lot of the other tribes. Kickapoos, the same way, I put them in the same category. But, I’ve always admired the Seminole Nation, the Seminole people. I had the opportunity to work for years with Kelly Haney. And, Senator Haney was a real supporter of the Historical Society and historic events and I think served your tribe as this tribal chairman at least once, if not more. But, yeah, living history, Trait. You’re right. It gives you the opportunity to present history a different way. It’s one thing to have a documentary film, to have a book, to have an article, have museum exhibits. These are all different tools. But you’ve got to throw in that living history because that appeals to especially young people. Education days are always my favorite days at a reenactment.
Thompson: Yeah.
Blackburn: Usually the Friday before the big public event, bringing in those 80 school buses and watching those kids have a good time and get it and will pay attention to the living historians. So it’s a powerful tool. And I think the Oklahoma Historical Society has been a pioneering organization over the years to promote that.
Thompson: Jake, let’s dive into a little bit of the history we want to talk about today with the Seminole Nation. Of course, the Seminoles are one of the Five Tribes, what we used to call the Five Civilized Tribes. And probably, if I’m if I’m not mistaken, the smallest of the Five tribes, correct?
Tiger: Correct. And so let’s get into that original history, because, you know, from my research that I was able to do, it started out with the Lower Creek Nation and around Georgia that kind of separated themselves a little bit and moved into Florida. And we’re talking in the early 1700s here. And then over time, they started to develop their own identity. Can you get into that a little bit?
Tiger: Yeah. So actually, so diving back in oral history, that actually goes back even further. So you know that that term Muscogee in it. And not only does that talk about the Muscogee (Creeks) but that also entails that the Seminoles and Miccosukees and even then the Choctaws and Chickasaws and Alabamas as well because a lot of our oral histories, they talked about how we were one people, then over time, different migrations or floods would kind of separate us and all these different stories, and so that that really falls under that. But geographically, our traditional homelands were in the southeastern part of the United States. So that’s, you know, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida. And so all of our stories, you know, begin out there being a matrilineal society. So what that means is our clans and our tribal towns are determined by our mother’s bloodline and her mother’s bloodline that goes all the way down. We still have that till this day. And so that that’s one way that we help preserve that that’s been handed down to us. So it’s, you know, it’s our honor to carry that, that that legacy on, through our history, and that’s really how the Seminoles were actually able to survive that way because we really believed in that. And also trying to, hold on to that, especially after, you know, years of wars and removal. That’s only that we had, we didn’t have no idea of currency or ownership. Everything that we had belonged in our hearts. So that’s, that’s, you know, we have to pass that on. It’s our, they always say that seven generations ideology that we carry, you carry everything on for the next seven generations. Everything you have to do has a benefit for the next seven generations.
Blackburn: One thing that’s always intrigued me is that a lot of people don’t know it, but the Muskogean people were part of the Mound Builders. And when people go to Spiro Mounds here in Oklahoma or Cahokia up in east St. Louis, they see these mounds and I think, oh, those ancient people who disappeared. They didn’t disappear. They changed. Instead of having the big cities and the big mounds and the temples, they started smaller villages, spreading out the different resources. But the Muskogean speaking peoples really descend from those Mound Builders. Are there any art forms that really, that you’ve seen that transcend from the Mound Builders? And some of the artifacts we found at Spiro Mounds that we have in our collections to current Seminole design?
Tiger: Yes, absolutely. A lot of those designs, I would say they’re evolutionary. And what I mean by that, I’m wearing a Seminole bandolier bag, but we can still see some of these designs that are moved over from our shell carvings or traditional tattooing. And it’s just human nature being evolutionary. You know, even at our, what we call stomp dancing. You know, back then, they used to use deer toes and turtle shells, and people now use tomato cans, and it’s just evolutionary, right? And I’ve seen a lot of commonalities. Years ago, back in 2022, I was invited to the State Capitol to present at Hispanic Heritage Day because they wanted me to talk about the story of Coacoochee who went to Mexico. And so I told this story and, and there was some people from Guatemala and, and Peru, and I’m wearing the same bandolier. And, they had the same designs on their skirts, and one woman had it painted on her face. So I, we started talking about then and come to find out, we have a lot of commonalities, even though we’re from the southeastern probably United States and they’re from South America and Central America. So it’s really interesting to see that. And even I could see some stuff that we use that’s even in Greek pottery, it’s in Hinduism and Buddhists. It’s really interesting to see that. Everyone kind of thought the same way, way, way back then and early human history.
Thompson: That’s fascinating. The other thing I want to get into before we get too far down the road into the history is the origin of the word Seminole, which, as I was reading it, came from the the Spanish word cimarron. And the Muscogee language had no “r” sound, so cimarrons became cimallones and then later to Seminoles. Am I on the right track?
Tiger: Yeah, that’s that’s one of the stories. I talk with my good friend Brian Spater from the Seminole Tribe of Florida, and and one thing where we’ve kind of find out is if you ask five Seminoles a question, you’re going to find a different answer, because we have, you know, we see things differently, right? There’s always a different side to the story. So that’s one of I, I always don’t discredit it if it’s, you know, a historical like that, especially if it’s oral history, I try my best not to discredit it unless, you know, it’s more recent recorded history that we would know. I usually just try to go with it and then put my pieces together and then try and make it all fit. And so that’s one of the advantages to that.
Thompson: Well, I read it in a book, so it can’t be wrong, right? (laughter)
Thompson: It can’t be wrong. Well, let’s get a little bit more into this. And, in 1783, the Treaty of Paris gives Florida to the Spanish. And then in 1819, we, Florida came to the United States. And that leads us into the Red Stick War, or also known as the Creek War of 1813–14, where you had Upper Creeks that resented American settlers flooding into the territory after the American Revolution, and they decide to fight back. Let’s get into a little bit of this, because I think that’s going to lead us directly into how the Seminoles ultimately get to Oklahoma.
Tiger: Yeah, so setting the stage for that, we really have to look at the the climate for the United States. So of course, the United States, they’re highly in debt to a lot of these European countries for even just for the American Revolution, because they got to get their firearms somewhere. So they’re buying it from Spain and France. And that kind of pushed into what we call, you know, the Westward expansion, and everyone wants to settle in the southeast. If you guys have ever been down to Alabama, some of the best soil out there for sugar cane, tobacco, cotton, all kinds of crops out there. But the problem is you can’t go and just take all these lands because there’s Muscogees, Seminole, and Choctaws down in Alabama. And so we have rights to these lands. We don’t have ownership, but we use this land for hunting, you know, for different seasons. We have to migrate, you know, depending if there’s a flood, we had to move up land. And so that that really kind of sets the stage for that. But, you know, we did a lot of fur trading down in southeast and places like Fort Toulouse. But what started the Seminole Wars, in actuality, I always try to say it does start with the Red Stick Wars. That’s kind of the the introduction to that. And so, but the first Seminole battle, the Battle of Fowltown in 1817, which was happening in Georgia. Well, when that happened, the Seminoles would jump the border into Florida. Well, the United States can go into Florida and start firing weapons because then that’s an international crisis.
Thompson: Right.
Blackburn: Because it’s Spanish territory.
Tiger: Yes. Correct. But and so the years goes on and so Spanish relinquishes “La Florida” to the United States and so that gives the United States open aim to go after the Seminoles that are attacking these settlements and southern Georgia. And so now there is all these battles are going on, and that’s what starts the First Seminole War in 1817.
Thompson: And a general that would make his way into American history as a future president, Andrew Jackson, makes his appearance here, and he’s leading a group of Lower Creeks and Cherokees to defeat the Upper Creeks at that particular point in time. And as you said, the Upper Creeks will flee into Florida. And that will, that will bolster the ranks of the Seminoles.
Tiger: Mmhmm. And so getting into that with, I’ve spoken a lot with historians, and they try to say that now the Seminoles got into Florida during the Seminole Wars. we’ve been going back and forth. We didn’t have borders back then. We just went wherever, wherever the deer was, wherever the plants were growing at this time. And so, you know, we did have permanent settlements. And that’s where that name Creek comes from is a lot of our towns were built along riverbanks. And so we, we traveled all over the place in the southeast through dugout canoes. And we have stories of our people going up to the Great Lakes and trading with the Ojibwe or the Potawatomis up there, or they get in in the canoes and they go on to, you know, Cuba and Puerto Rico and Costa Rica and trading with them. And so when the Europeans saw that, they said, well, we’re going to call these people Creeks because their permanent settlements are located along these waterways.
Thompson: Tell us a little bit about Osceola.
Tiger: So Asi-yahola was born in Alabama, not too far from actually present-day Fort Toulouse out there, there was a lot of towns that were, in that region. And actually my people are actually from that area as well and not too far from Auburn, but Asi-yahola, he was a Seminole. He was a warrior. He was he was never really seen as as a as a micco, a chief, because that was a different ranking. But he was seen as more of like a high ranking warrior or general back then. And but the way he he carried himself, everyone followed that because no one wanted to leave Florida. No one can come in to our lands and tell us hey, you’ve got to pack your stuff up and go west of the Mississippi to these unknown lands. And we’re going to bring our people in and, you know, we’re going to plant all these crops and and build farms on top of your ancestors’ cemeteries, essentially. And so during the Seminole Wars, and one thing I will say here, since the Seminole Wars were so long, it’s a 29-year-long struggle against the United States of encroachment on tribal lands. And so a lot of historians will say the First, Second, and Third Seminole War. But to the Seminole people, we just call it the Seminole Wars. It’s that 29-year-long struggle. And so that that’s essentially what now really push that, and what really amplified it was the Indian Removal Act of 1830 with President Andrew Jackson, who signed that. And so and we, we’ve been fighting Andrew Jackson since 1812. Now we have stories of us fighting against him in New Orleans and and Tallahassee, at Burnt Corn Creek, all of his, his, his troops out there. So he already had an animosity towards the Seminole and Muskogean people. And so, so then we kind of created a whole strong front. And so that brings up a lot of our great warriors. I’ll say, with tough times brings a lot of tough people. And Asi-yahola is one of those guys that stepped up to the plate when it was time to, you know, really defend our homelands and our traditional ideologies. And so, yeah, he was really seen as kind of a patriot at the time, not just to the Seminole people, but even across the United States. Everyone loved this guy, because they see that this is basically, you know, the little guys getting pushed around by the big guy, and he stands up for himself. We all love that story, right? And so that that’s the story of Asi-yahola going up against the United States and even during the the treaty signing of the Treaty of Fort Gibson, where he walks up to the table and, you know, reaches into his, reaches for the knife and and plunges his knife right to the treaty and tells the agents there, you know, this is how I’ll sign. That’s him saying, I’m not going to leave Florida. I’m going to stay here and fight until the last drop of Seminole blood is on this hunting ground. And so, you know, he was, he’s one of those really great guys I look up to. And I always tell folks now, he was a great warrior, but really look into what he was fighting for. Don’t idolize him as a person, but go after what he was thinking of, you know, that that true form of freedom.
Blackburn: When Kelly Haney, you know, Kelly Haney, was doing his painting of Osceola in that famous scene with the knife, he went back to Washington, DC, and they pulled the treaty out, and there is a slit in it where the knife went. And that’s a true story. And it’s one of my favorite paintings by Enoch. And the defiance in his face, Kelly captured that perfectly, and it was the kind of warrior that would have been charismatic, and people would have said Yeah. Oh, yeah. I’ll follow you, which was kind of the Indian way. the natural leaders, people would just say, yeah, go on a raid with you, or I’ll go on a hunt with you because you can help me feed my family or protect my family. Whichever it might be. And he was that kind of a leader.
Thompson: Bob, where is that painting today? Do you know?
Blackburn: We have a print in our collections. We have one here because Kelly wanted to sell us one, and we raised the money and bought it. The original is probably in a private collection. I don’t know where the original is, but there are prints.
Thompson: Yeah, I don’t think I’ve seen that painting before, so I’m going to have to go do some searching.
Tiger: Yeah, yeah, if you get a chance to come to Wewoka, we have a copy of it in our gallery.
Thompson: Okay. Fantastic.
Blackburn: When you when you say that word, Asi-yahola, Opothleyahola is a person we’ll talk about in the middle of the Civil War who’s another natural leader that people were willing to follow into the jaws of death almost. What is the “Yahola” part? Is that the family name?
Tiger: So the “Yahola,” which means like, it’s like a singer everyone got and bringing out a call. And so in the English they call him, Osceola. But the Muscogee name is Asi-yahola, so it’s translated to the “Black Drink Singer.” They’re referring to the yaupon holly drink. And so that’s one of those ceremonial aspects that he picked up when he became a warrior. And so then they, alot of those ceremonial leaders and miccos refer to him as Asi-yahola, what he did during the ceremony, so that that’s what he was known for the rest of his adult life.
Blackburn: Before we finish our conversation, I want to get back to the the Light Horseman of the Seminole Nation in the 1890s, going through those same ceremonial drinks as they would go out to enforce the law.
Thompson: Okay. Yeah. Stay tuned for a few minutes so we could get to that one. Okay. Well, in 1832, the Seminole’s signed the Treaty of Payne’s Landing, which relinquished all the claims to the Florida lands and held that the Seminoles would reunite on Creek lands in Indian Territory, and that sort of starts this migration. So there’s an exploratory party of seven Seminoles that come to Indian Territory in 1832. They start to scout everything out. They don’t necessarily like what they see, do they, Jake?
Tiger: No, no, they don’t approve of Indian Territory. But actually, at that time, the Indian agent signed off on their names. So when he went back to Washington, DC, said, hey, these these Seminole chiefs want to move to Indian Territory. And actually they they did not sign at all. And he actually was fired for that, in Washington, for doing that act.
Thompson: Okay. Yeah. And so one of the things that they didn’t like, which I thought this was funny, a little funny in my research, is they didn’t like the cold climate here, which, you know, if you’ve been in Oklahoma in July, you’re like cold climate? And they didn’t like the proximity to the Plains Indians. And this is an issue that crops up time and time again, not only with the Seminoles, but with other of the Eastern tribes that are forced to migrate to Oklahoma, is, you know, the Plains Indians are getting squeezed and squeezed also, and they’re having to come farther east to find, you know, food and all of those kinds of things as well. So you start to see a lot more of the Plains Indians incursions into the eastern part of Indian Territory, 1820s, ’30s and ’40s. And so they didn’t really want anything to do with the Plains Indians.
Tiger: You had, and even at that time, during the Seminole Wars, there were a lot of, paid American Indian scouts and mercenaries that were fighting against the Seminoles. And then we, we have records of the Shawnees and Delawares and even the Osage as well. And, of course, you know, why would we want to move next to the Osage? We’re fighting them in the same exact people down in Florida over at the Battle of Loxahatchee or whatever, you know, places like that. And so, you know, that they had this, you know, this, this controlled here, and then, you know, even Indian Territory, there’s a lot of skirmishes between, you know, the Osage and the Muscogee (Creeks) that were in this area. I think in 1832, the Treaty of Holmes Creek was signed to to say the Osage can’t raid Fort Gibson or the surrounding areas because the Muscogee (Creeks) and Cherokees are there now.
Blackburn: You know, Trait, we always talk about the, you know, moving the Five Tribes to the West, and a lot of people assume that was unknown lands. But many of these people of the Five Tribes have been coming through Oklahoma for years hunting buffalo. We have a lot of accounts. I know the Chickasaws were here a lot. They were very familiar with the territory even. And they were Cherokees who had been West. And, and a lot of people don’t realize how mobile a lot of these Indian people were. It was nothing to get up and, you know, traveled 200 miles for a purpose. But the buffalo was a real draw for all tribes, whether it’s the tribes moving out of the northern Rocky Mountains and getting onto the Plains, getting a horse, becoming, you know, the greatest horsemen in the world. Kind of like the Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan here. He had this mobile society. But the reason they’re there are the buffalo. So the Chickasaws and the Choctaws and the Seminoles, they like buffalo as well. They make money on the pelts. You get the beef, the buffalo meat. And so a lot of these tribes were familiar with Oklahoma and what was out here. So they probably did not have a good impression at all, just from previous generations and stories that would have been told around the campfire.
Tiger: Yeah, absolutely. And one thing I want to say for the viewers is there were buffalo in the southeast and Florida and Alabama and Georgia actually. And in the 1700s, Bernard Romans, who was from the British actually, was down in northwest Florida, and in his journal and he writes about the Muscogee and Seminole chiefs wearing bison horn headdresses. And it’s a lot different than what you would see, what the Pawnee would wear. Ours was just one horn split down the middle and one at the temple facing forward. And there there’s a drawing that was done by Bernard Romans wearing that. So we have a lot of stories about the buffalo being down in the southeast as well.
Blackburn: So as they were, as they were wiped out there. They would have started moving west where the buffalo were.
Thompson: It was surprising to me when I watched Ken Burns’ documentary on the American Buffalo that they showed a map in there of how prolific they were all over the continent even, it’s all the way to the East Coast. And that was surprising to me. I always just assumed that they were in the Central Plains and in the west, but, it, you know, they were everywhere. With that, we’ll take a quick break for a brief message.
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Thompson: Okay, we’re back, and I want to pick up where we left off because we were talking about the Treaty of Payne’s Landing, and on March 28, 1833 the Seminoles that were, had come to Indian Territory in this exploratory party, they were essentially forced to sign a treaty which basically said that they liked the land that they saw, they were going to come here. And that treaty, as well as the Payne’s Landing Treaty, was ratified by Congress in April of 1834. But the problem with that was, is that none of the Seminole leadership back in Florida agreed to that treaty. And this essentially kicks off what is known as the Second Seminole War.
Tiger: Correct. And so that actually what a lot historians will say, the first battle of the Second Seminole War is a Battle of Dade’s, they call it Dade’s Massacre. But whenever a non-Indian is murdered, they call it a massacre. But we historians, we now we call it the Dade’s Battle. And actually, that same day, Asi-yahola actually assassinated Wiley Thompson at Fort King. So while Thompson, who had played a big part in that the treaty, was actually assassinated by Asi-yahola over at Fort King and in present day Ocala, and then you go down to Bushnell, Florida, where the battle of, Dade’s Battle happened, where Micanopy, who was leading the attack on Major Francis Dade, and that was the biggest battle. A lot of this referred to as little, The Little Bighorn, before Bighorn was a thing because all the Seminoles wiped out all the the troops on that battlefield.
Blackburn: In thinking about that, you know, we can call it an assassination. But among the Seminole and Muscogee (Creeks), in fact, all the Five Tribes before constitutional government, the basic law of, the law way of enforcing traditional ways, was the the law of blood revenge, is that individuals were empowered to enforce the law that was accepted by their people. And so when that so-called assassination was held, it was him saying, no, I am the law, and he broke the law. He broke what the Seminoles will accept as a community. So he was outside of the law at that time, and he was just enforcing it. Same thing would happen with the Ross faction when they came west and just wiped out the Ridges. They signed that treaty. A lot of people say those were assassinations, but it was the law of blood revenge, which was an ancient way of keeping some kind of social order within your community, whether it was tribe or clan or township. And so that’s a little bit of background there. Now later we’ll get into the Lighthorse and other law enforcement. But at the time, law blood revenge was a way to keep things together.
Tiger: Yeah, that was the thing that was done. Even Asi-yahola assassinated a Seminole chief who signed, or actually did sign off the treaty and actually got a payment. And actually, in actuality, he actually shot the Seminole chief that he went by the name of Charley Emathla, and when Asi-yahola shot him, he took all the coins that he was given and threw them every direction. And that was kind of saying, this is worthless to us. All your money’s out here, we have to go move out west. And that even happened with William McIntosh as well, when he was assassinated by the Muscogee (Creeks) were giving up those lands in Alabama. So then that’s when we’re along what we call like it’s an eye for an eye type of justification.
Thompson: Now, this was a very costly war. Second Seminole War goes from 1835 to approximately 1842. And one of the fascinating things that I read in preparation for this is it’s the most costly Indian War ever fought by the United States Army. Over 1,500 soldiers died. It cost $20 million to fight this. Over 4,000 Seminoles were captured or surrendered. But this was a brutal war, and this was guerrilla warfare in swamps and forests, and I can’t imagine the conditions of fighting down in Florida where that occurred. I mean, this was pretty rough stuff.
Tiger: So one thing that we did in the southeast with a guerrilla warfare tactics, because, well, we saw it as ineffective for troops to stand on a field and just line up and just wait to get shot. I always thought that was an inaccurate way to settle disputes. And so, so what the Seminoles did, you know, they, they use a lot of guerrilla warfare. They would, you know, hide in the tree lines. It would actually be up in the trees as sharpshooters. We had a lot of men that would just strike like lightning. One of the best ways I would say to really visualize that is The Last of the Mohicans when Magua, in all of his warriors on both sides, attacked the British. That’s probably the best way to visualize that. But one thing that the Seminoles did, and during the during all these battles, is our battles were already kind of pre-planned out. So, what we had were a lot of our warriors would actually go out and track down these troops that are going down, going down the Fort King Road and then heading out to Fort Brook. And they would they would watch every, every move they’re taking. Then they go back to the chiefs and say this where these guys are going, this is how many they have. And that’s when then we all show up, and that’s when we get attack out of nowhere and then just disappear back out into the Florida wilderlands. And so that that’s, that’s one way we fought, and another tactic that we use, what we call treeing. And what that means is we fought in pairs. So we would have someone with us, you know, because if you have black powder rifles, you only got one shot, right? So we’d have one guy, you know, in front of us who’s shooting from a tree. When he fires, I move on to the next tree in front of him, I fire, he’s already reloaded. So we’re just going down the line. That’s was one tactic that was really popular in the Eastern woodlands.
Thompson: Wow. That’s fascinating.
Blackburn: Mmhmm.
Thompson: That is absolutely fascinating. And along the way, as Seminole Indians are being captured, they’re being transported back to Indian Territory, and so over time the attrition starts. And ultimately the capitulation at Fort Dade is signed on March 6, 1837. Jake, you’ll have to make sure I get this name right. Micanopy?
Tiger: No. Micanopy.
Trait: Micanopy. Okay. Thank you. I need all the help I can get. When I give tours at the Capitol, Bob, you know, of course, we have a lot of Native American art there. And, you know, there’s a there’s a relatively new Choctaw painting by Dylan Cavin about the Choctaw Code Talkers, which we did a podcast about, and I always have to apologize for my bad Choctaw when I talk about that painting. So, I appreciate all the help I can get Jake.
Tiger: No problem. No problem.
Thompson: But that really sets the stage. That is basically the end of Seminole resistance. Although there is a a remnant of Seminoles that escaped so far into the swamps and in the forest that the United States government never gets to them.
Tiger: Yes. And so that that kind of sets for the Treaty of 1856, there was was one Seminole chief by the name of Holata Micco. His English name was Billy Bowlegs, and he was fighting out in Florida. And so a lot of the chiefs that were out here, one of the main components was, John Jumper, Heneha Mekko. And he’s, he’s, you know, trying to negotiate with the United States and Muscogee (Creeks) and try to set aside lands because Holata Micco says well, if you guys don’t have lands and an Indian territory, why did I move here? I already have a home in Florida. And so the, as the years goes on, we get that treaty. But, there were some Seminoles that stayed behind. The one was, Abiaka, Sam Jones and his people went into Florida, and there was about 250 to 300 of them, were able to, you know, take refuge out in the Florida Everglades and stay up there. They’re still out there to this day a lot of the, that’s where we have the Seminole Tribe of Florida at.
Thompson: Now, is that why here, that the Seminoles in Florida claim to be the only Indian tribe never conquered by the US Army.
Tiger: Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s that’s what they go by. And, yeah, at the same time, a lot of us were brought here, through the Port of Tampa Bay at Egmont Key or Pensacola Bay, and going up through the the Gulf of Mexico and going into New Orleans, Jackson Barracks and Fort Pike and then going up the Mississippi River and branching off into Fort Smith, Arkansas, and then coming into the Three Forks Rivers and coming into Fort Gibson. And but at the same time, you know, this is same time the Seminole Wars are going on during the removal. And so a lot of our, everyone was brought here as a prisoner of war. And so we have, you know, it’s not really shown in any portraits that I know of or any anything that’s done in modern media, but not only were the warriors brought here and chains and shackles, but the women and the elders and children were too. Now I’ve actually gotten the chance to see a pretty big collection of shackles now that were used for for Seminoles were brought here. I was over at Loxahatchee Battlefield three years ago, and they showed us about 17 of them. And and they even showed us real small ones that would be used for a child that’s probably about five years old. And that’s, that’s, the treatment that we got. And so a lot of us were brought here also on decommissioned slave ships as well. And then, and also on keelboats, coming into Indian Territory.
Thompson: That’s fascinating. I did not know that. That is horrifying and fascinating at the same time. By 1842, General Zachary Taylor reports there’s 2,833 Seminoles, including Black people in Indian Territory that had been either captured or removed voluntarily. And so now we are established in the Indian Territory, but the Seminoles still don’t really have a home of their own. They’re still, I think, at that point expected to just live inside the Creek reservation. And that’s not good enough for the Seminoles. They want their own plot of land. And that leads us into the 1856 treaty with the Creeks.
Tiger: Correct. And so at the time of of the signing of 1856 treaty, that’s exactly right. The United States wanted us to be under the jurisdiction of the Muscogee (Creek) Nation. Well, that’s not, that’s not good enough for the Seminoles. And even there was even some factions other than the Muscogee (Creeks) that were fighting against the Seminoles in the wars. I believe in 1837, there was about 700 enlisted warriors that went into Florida to fight against the Seminoles. And so, but Seminoles, we were told we were going to go to Indian Territory, we would have our own lands, and that that was a promise to us. And so as as the years goes on and, you know, there’s negotiations between the United States and the Seminoles, there’s a really great delegation photo that was taken 1852 that has Billy Bowlegs and John Jumper in it and a few other band chiefs that are in Washington, DC, you know, and those negotiations and so it it took some time, but also finally on August 7, 1856, the Treaty of the Creeks was ratified. And so that recognized the Seminole Nation as a separate sovereign Indian nation here in Indian Territory.
Thompson: And that gave the Seminole Nation over 2.1 million acres as a part of their own reservation. And so, that’s a that’s a pretty large swath of land for a fairly small tribe.
Tiger: Yes. And in our lands, and per the treaty, were everything in between the two Canadian rivers. So that’s as kind of starting out in Pottawatomie County, where Asher is, Oklahoma County, where we’re sitting at right now, in Canadian County all the way up to the Texas border was, was lands that were set aside for the Seminoles. Unfortunately, as time goes on, the Treaty of 1866 kind of relinquishes that, and that’s result of the Civil War.
Blackburn: So, you know one reason for that kind of that linear, that was access to the buffalo out on the Southern Plains. Within the American leaders would have said, well, if, if, if they’re going to take care of themselves, they need to be able to hunt and feed themselves and access, just like the Cherokee Outlet was there to allow the Cherokees to go out and hunt the buffalo. The Seminoles, Muscogee (Creeks) had this corridor going all the way out onto the High Plains where they could hunt the buffalo.
Thompson: Yeah. And so, as part of the agreement, the United States government agreed to cover the losses in moving to the new reservation. And they also agreed to help support schools to help provide funding for agriculture. They agreed to build a council house for the Seminoles. And so, life starts to assume some bit of normality. I think you start, you know, from the 18–, mid-1830s into the 1850s. But this one thing comes, and it’s a terrible thing for the Indian nations in Oklahoma, and it’s the Civil War.
Tiger: And just, backing up, real quickly before the Treaty of 1856 was brought about, and there was another Seminole chief by the name of Coacoochee, and he actually went to Mexico because he was did not like the conditions here, in Indian Territory and, and him and a group of Seminoles and, and escaped slaves actually went into Brackettville, Texas, and then going into the the mountains of Mexico and creating a settlement out there. And they stayed for about ten years. He actually served as a colonel in Mexican Army for about 6 years while he was out there. But that was kind of a result of, you know, the, the attitude of the Seminoles were saying, why are we going to live here? We had to be under someone else’s rule. And so that’s why a lot of them packed up and went to Mexico.
Blackburn: And the Kickapoos and even the Cherokees, Sequoyah died while he was searching for a new home for the Cherokees in Texas. And, and so, a lot of a lot of those tribes saw that as another opportunity.
Thompson: The unfortunate thing about the Civil War is many, most of the tribes found themselves caught, because the Union Army removed their soldiers from Indian Territory. There goes that protection. Most of the Indian agents were Confederate, and the Indian agents were trying to talk the tribes into coming on board with the Confederate States, which all of the Five Tribes officially did. Although, as we know, we’ve talked about in previous podcast episodes, it was certainly not a majority decision of most of the citizens of those tribes, because in any given case, probably half or more of the tribes, not only did they not really want to align with the Confederacy, they really just wanted to stay neutral and not really get involved. But of course, the Civil War drew everybody into that. And it was John Jumper who signed the agreement with the Confederate Nation to come on board, on behalf of the Confederate States.
Tiger: Yeah. Oh, go ahead.
Blackburn: But I was going to say, well, in all the tribes, that was almost a new green light to be able to seek vengeance on your former enemies within the tribe. And so that old fight that you were talking about with the Upper Creeks, Lower Creeks fighting, you know, 50 years earlier, it’s another reason to go at it again.
Tiger: Yeah. And then the, you know what, the Civil War, it really devastated not only just Indian Territory, but even the American Indian tribes. I believe there was statistically about 40% of the children after the Civil War were left as orphans because so many Seminoles were just brought into this war. And, you know, we were at the Battle of Honey Springs, at Round Mountain, you know, that was a group that that won Opothleyahola up to Fort Scott, Kansas, that were trying to evade this, this whole conflict. And in that pursuit, they were brought right into that battle or the Civil War. And so it was really, it was devastating to the Seminoles. It was it, it wasn’t really our conflict. We weren’t, didn’t see ourselves as Americans at the time. We weren’t even American citizens. But they brought us, you know, into this battle. And so we had to pick and choose. And so, you know, we’re, family’s fighting against each other once again. And it’s, you know, conflicts never, never great at all.
I always tell people, even with battle reenactments, and, I always say that’s, you know, the war should always be the last resort. And in any instance, it’s, you know, for us, we were mainly a peaceful people. We try to do everything diplomatically. One of the best ways that we’ve seen diplomacy being done in the 1800s was a portrait that was done in 1843 by John McStanley, of all the Indian nations that meet up in Tahlequah, and that, you know, the International Treaty Council of 1843, that’s how we used to settle stuff. But when this new kind of lifestyle, you know, they tell us that we have to, you know, go to war with one another. That was, you know, pretty odd for us because we used to settle disputes with stickball back then, you know, we didn’t in spilling blood of our brethren. So it was it was a weird, new climate to us.
Blackburn: And part of that, too, one thing that’s always fascinated me, but American Indians really did not have the same concept of personal property that Western Europeans and Americans had at the time, whereas Americans said, oh, we need laws to protect personal property and to protect my money, protect my land and all that. That’s where laws began. And a lot of the mixed blood Indian leaders who wanted constitutional government wanted it to protect their property because they were accumulating, but their traditionalists would not have said that. They would have said no, it belongs to all of us. And so how can we fight each other? Because it doesn’t belong to us. It belongs to all of us together. And if we can find a peaceful way to live together, it’ll be harmonious. And looking for that harmony, it was so different than the Western European tradition of land ownership and personal property and laws to protect it, and armies to protect your property and your land. That was not the Indian way.
Tiger: And so with the the Civil War finally coming to an end and Indian Territory was left in shambles. And so, we’re in the Reconstruction Era. And so that that that brings about the Treaty of 1856 or 1866. And essentially what that meant was the Seminoles were going to be or being punished for fighting in the Civil War.
Thompson: Right.
Tiger: With the Confederacy. And so we were told we had to sell all the that two million acres, and we had to sell it for 15 cents an acre back to the United States, and the lands that we want, we have to buy it from the Muscogee (Creeks) at 50 cents an acre. And so that, you know, we’re getting, you know, the short end of the stick all throughout the 19th century.
Thompson: Well, ultimately, you go from over 2.1 million acres of territory to a little over 365,000 acres of territory, which is essentially Seminole County, what Seminole County is today, correct?
Tiger: Yeah, that is correct. Yeah.
Thompson: Yeah. The United States government definitely exacted their pound of flesh out of the tribes that aligned with the Confederacy in that era. And so that really sets the scene for, you know, the 1860s and 1870s. And of course, we get to, the end of the 19th century, and we get into allotment now and the preparation for statehood.
Tiger: So little bit before statehood, you know, the Seminole Nation is rebuilding. So we really amplify, our tribal Lighthorse, tribal sovereignty, even, you know, going against the, the Allotment Acts, you know, going against the Dawes Commission in 1890. And then education was a big thing also. The Seminole Nation built two schools that were fully operated by the Seminole Nation, fully funded by the Seminole Nation. So we built one school in 1891, which was Mekasukey Academy. And then in 1894, we built the Girls Academy, which was Emahaka. And those were fully funded by or by the by the Seminole Nation up until 1906, where the federal government came in and and seized our schools. And they kind of labeled this as is now quote unquote, incompetent. And so they took the schools from us and then became a government schools. But those were were, you know, those were the ideas of Seminoles back then where we’re, you know, even though we’re constantly have these struggles, we still have to keep moving no matter what. And so that that’s one of the things that we, we look onto around the turn of the century before statehood.
Blackburn: And one thing too, Trait, that I always like to remind people when I’m doing an exhibit or a book is that the Seminoles had a constitution by this time. And so they had, you know, a judicial system, an executive branch, legislative branch, and the Lighthorsemen that I referred to earlier were still very active in the 1890s. So at a time after the Land Run of ’89, Oklahoma City is growing, Muskogee is the biggest city, in the Twin Territories with railroads and movie theaters and opera houses. Here are the Seminole who have their own constitutional government, their own source of income, And they would designate these Lighthorsemen. And the Lighthorsemen were given the authority of the government. The way the old law blood revenge would have been working, because a leader could do it. Here you have the state or the nation saying and those Lighthorsemen were some of the most effective law enforcement officers in the 1890s, at a time when the Doolins and the Daltons and, you know, all the famous outlaws are running around, you didn’t mess with the Seminole Lighthorsemen, and they would go through. And there’s a great anthropologist got to interview a lot of these Seminole Lighthorsemen. And so I did an article for the Indian Law Review on constitutional government and law enforcement. And those Seminole Lighthorsemen were around long enough where researchers got to interview them and witness drinking the black tea, is what they call it at the time. I’m not sure what really that is, but going to this ceremony and it would kind of bring them all together and in a sense of protection and some mind control, perhaps there could have been other things involved there, but they would want to go through these ceremonies that would protect them as they were going out after the bad guys. And so that was surviving until 1898. And the Curtis Act, when they said, no more tribal government, no more law enforcement, no more schools. And then that was the the road to allotment that would eventually happen by 1907.
Thompson: We have one more. We’re starting to get toward the end of our time. And I want to be sure and get this in, too, because there’s one more big thing that happens to the Seminole Nation, and it is the Greater Seminole Oil Field in the 1920s. And that is a massive oil field that’s discovered essentially in 1923 with the Betsy Foster Number 1 well that’s drilled near Wewoka, came in at 2,800 barrels a day. That establishes the Wewoka field. Ultimately 39 separate oil pools are developed within a region with really Seminole County as the center of that region. And overnight, all of Seminole County becomes boomtown. And with it comes all the good things about boomtown and all the bad things about boomtown as well. Yeah, we actually have a photograph at the Seminole Nation Museum of where Mekasukey Academy sits and then a whole, It was an aerial shot, and it shows all of Seminole County. I did see all this oil derricks all over the place, and it’s insane to see that. But unfortunately, the Seminoles actually didn’t get any of the profit from the oil money because of the Allotment Acts. And so only about 20% of Seminole County actually belonged to the Seminoles, to the Seminole Nation. So we actually didn’t see a single penny of that. And we still haven’t. And so but, you know, when we get into the kind of more modern modern day of the McGirt v. Oklahoma, which we’re trying to look into now, that that’s that’s, the climate of that, and we’re trying to rectify the error of humanity because this is what this is, this is ours. This is what the treaty says. You know, this is what you know, the federal government said they would take care of us. And so, why would y’all move here and then and then take all of our oil money and leave Seminole County just dry? It’s, well, this is Seminole County, and Tulsa were one of the richest places in all of America.
Thompson: Yeah. Peak production July 30, 1927, 527,000 barrels were pumped. And in 1927 through 1929, over 150 million to 200 barrels of oil in that time. It was a massive oil field. At one time, it accounted for 2.6% of the world’s entire oil supply during that era. Is it still prolific for oil and gas out there?
Tiger: I’ve lived in Seminole for 26 of my 27 years, and it’s pretty, yeah, I would say the main climate out there. This is definitely oil.
Blackburn: Reversion. Reclamation. They’ll go on in and with some secondary recovery. But, I remember my dad lived in, he helped to start Seminole Junior College in the 1960s. And, he had a chance to buy some stripper oil wells. At that time, oil was $10 a barrel, and he could have bought these for almost nothing. People were trying to sell them to anybody who would take them, because it cost more to service a well at $10 a barrel than it did in income. So he missed an opportunity, or I might have not ever been a historian. I might have been a rich kid, a rich kid of a of an oil man. But, you know, the oil patch is still going there, and some production, but it’s mainly what they call stripper wells.
Thompson: Bob, I don’t know, I can’t really picture you as an oil tycoon. Yeah. So, I don’t know. You have too many scruples for that. Well, and I want to mention too, before we close, but during this time of oil discovery and exploration in Seminole County, we have the first female chief of the Seminole Nation, and that’s Alice Brown Davis. She served from 1922 until her death in 1935. What do you want to say about her?
Tiger: So one thing that’s really cool about Alice Brown Davis is she’s kind of our 20th century resistance to the United States. And at that time, before 1969, a lot of our principal chiefs were appointed by the president of United States. At that time, the United States wanted to bail on these lands because of the oil rush. And so one of the places that was sought after was Emahaka School. And so they they bring in different chiefs like George Harrison and Hulputta Micco and, and then they bring Alice Brown Davis and they’re saying, no, we’re not going to sell lands to you guys. You’ve already taken plenty enough. And so Alice Brown Davis stayed as a “no” person during that whole time of her her reign as the principal chief of the nation. And so we really look up to her as, as we know when that final resistance to, you know, to the bigger portion of the force on the government, you know, but you know, later in the 1969 on, on March 8, Seminole Nation finally ratifies their own constitution so we can actually operate without any type of interference from the United States presidents. And so, that gives us the opportunity to elect our our principal chief, our assistant chief, and our tribal council. And we still go by that to this day.
Blackburn: Two things, Trait, I’d like to add to that is, a descendant of Alice Brown Davis is Jesse Ed Davis, the famous guitarist. You know, we’ve already done an entire podcast on Jesse Ed, but he’s related to her and I admire, her. When I was added to The Chronicles in the 1980s, I published an article by someone who did a biography of her, and I admire her a lot. I use her as one of the women in Oklahoma history we need to emulate. But getting tribal sovereignty back has been so important, not just for the Seminole people, but to me, it’s good for the state. We have some political leaders who don’t want to deal with the tribes as equals, but they are equals in terms of federal law. So if you look at the law of the land, tribes have their own sovereign governments, and they’re supposed to be treated as equals in this give and take between states and cities and counties and tribes and the federal government. But yeah, some people say, no, no, we want to disregard that. We’ve got to respect tribal sovereignty. People need to understand the importance of that and how it’s not just a way to make up for past offenses and bad treatment, but it should have always been there, and the tribes never gave up all of their sovereignty anyway. They may have lost the ability to have their own education system or their own law enforcement, but they kept that sovereignty in terms of being people who had a community, a sense of community. And what we’ve done now with the law since the 1960s and ’70s, starting with JFK and Lyndon Baines Johnson, even Richard Nixon, and then finally in the 1970s and ’80s, we start getting the ability to resurrect tribal government, treating all of the community with housing, with nutrition, with law enforcement. And that’s what we’re dealing with now. And because it’s evolving, as the Seminoles have always evolved, Seminoles are coming up with their own version of of industry, you know, business, government, the way it shapes. And every tribe is different. And it should reflect the way the Seminole want their government to be. And I know we’ve been through some troubles with tribal leadership, but I think that we’re going to we’re going to emerge from that. And I think the Seminole people will find this way in the future, but we’ve got to respect that it’s your right to decide who your leader’s going to be and how your government looks, not the way that we want it to be just because we’re in a state government or the federal government. So I think that respect has to be first respect, and then the the actual ability to help, you know, people will be there.
Tiger: Absolutely. I always tell folks the treaties are the supreme law of the land. No matter where you are in the United States, all those treaties that pertain to where you are, regarding the Indian nations that are here, that’s the supreme law of the land. So I appreciate you for saying that Dr. Blackburn.
Thompson: Well, I want to say, Jake, it’s been so great to have you on this podcast, sharing your knowledge with everyone out there, which, as you all have heard, is extensive. But also everything that you’re doing to keep the traditions of your people alive and to keep those stories alive and all of the ways that you share thatn not only in your official role at the Seminole Nation, but in all of the things that you do as a volunteer to get out there and share those stories. So we appreciate you so much.
Tiger: Absolutely. I, like I said last week, you know, Trait, as long as I’m here I’ll support our historic sites and OHS and support education. That’s why I’m here.
Thompson: Very good. Well Bob, it’s been another great episode. I just always enjoy these conversations, and I can’t wait to hear what we’re going to talk about next.
Blackburn: Well same here, and thank you for joining us. I always learn when I deal with my Indian friends and learning more about your culture. So thank you for sharing.
Tiger: Mvto. (upbeat music playing)
Thompson: With that, we will see you next time. You’ve been listening to A Very OK Podcast, hosted by Trait Thompson and Dr. Bob Blackburn. The podcast is produced by the Oklahoma Historical Society. Visit us at okhistory.org and find us on social media by searching for @okhistory. I encourage you to purchase a membership to OHS to help us continue our mission to collect, preserve, and share Oklahoma’s unique and fascinating history.
(Upbeat music playing)
